BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: able on March 19, 2009, 09:38:57 AM
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gad,y all hope you are all well...
mr rud put a little extra funds in the bank and i decided to grab me a red 202, m20 and a shifter to match from the wreckers... i also ordered a complete seal kit while i had the dosh.
a few questions arise... i notice you fellas lifting the entire front of your beddy's and rolling out the motor and gear box on the front end and i was wondering if that approach is 100% necessary?
i have to take off the three speed gear box on the old 186 because i need the bell housing for the four speed so if its just the motor is their enough tilt room to just jack up/wheel stand and with the help of a small engine crane slide the motor out????? (i have gutted the front of all components so their is no radiator or anything)
and would one bother replacing welsh plugs? or if they look fine leave them?
the 202 had "150" (or within 5 of) on compression test (cold) is that normal for a second hand red 202?
any other advice would be appreciated. i have never done a engine change before and i suspect their is a few tricks and hints learned from experience...
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lifting the van up might look hard but its not , its only few bolts ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;just remember to put em all back.lol ;)
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yeah, it's the easy way, just remember- safety first.
don't get under it!
some photos in this thread....
http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=80.msg5116#msg5116 (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=80.msg5116#msg5116)
I used an engine hoist and tow straps, because they wom't scratch the piant.
I bought a couple of bigger axle stands, but still not big enough so put them on SOLID base of redgum blocks, and put the g/box crossmember bolts back in to lock the stands in place.
The beddy is light without the motor and crossmember.
I was a bit nervous before hand, but it went well solo, just don't be in a hurry and drain everything first
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thanks guys!
so i just put the solid bar back on (the one the radiator bolts too) have the new motor all painted up and ready and then lift with a hired crane from that solid bar after i have undone the bolts holding the front end to the chaise (is that correct spelling... ow well you know what i mean) , unbolt the old 186 lift it off, bolt new 202 in and roll back under the beddy.
yes.... and remember to do up the front end bolts ;)
sounds simple but i would do it with two people.....
is it pretty easy to line up the front end bolts as you lower the beddy back down or does it take a few goes?
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Able have a look at this thread Motor Change (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=452.msg3811#msg3811) for a bit more info.
And look at the trolly John Abbot made to make it even easier
A gantry and block and tackle works as well - see eddys albumn (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=8&g2_itemId=5286)
Oh and the "search" tab is your friend :D
Warren
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the beddy is stuck in the garage so i cant get a gantry in there....
i will have to go with the method John Abbot went with but i haven't the money to make trolley.
seems straight forward.... ill work out a cheap option for the lack of trolley.
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Hey Able....At a pinch mate ,you could wire a trolley- jack to the end of the gearbox so it wont come off and that way you would have a set of wheels at the back and the beddies wheels at the front and roll it out. Just a thought, when you are undoing the 4 bolts that hold the crossmember to the chassis,they sometimes can be a bit hard to wind out, so you may have to wind them in and out a bit to eventually get them out. Let us know how you go.! cheers...johnno ;D ;D
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thanks john for the idea!
i have a trolley jack so that will have to do!
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you can even just skid it out on a piece of ply or something. youll figure it out bro.
ben
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i wish i did the welsh plugs while the engine was out cuase it was hard changing them once its bolted in.
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the beddy is stuck in the garage so i cant get a gantry in there....
i will have to go with the method John Abbot went with but i haven't the money to make trolley.
seems straight forward.... ill work out a cheap option for the lack of trolley.
Do you have a hack saw?
Can you say "lost shopping trolley"?
Hacksaw meet shopping trolly.
Shopping trolly gets a new life as a Bedophiles tool of mass destruction :D
Warren
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Bedophiles????
i get dirty enough working on the bedy without you making me feel dirty as well :D
you got me thinking though... that big fat cheep skateboard my son never rides ;) nice smoooooth bearings. ok im scrubbing the 202 for a repaint and reading my new haynes vb rebuild manual.
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i bought a 1250k engine crane from super cheap....
it was $360 and very bloody heavy!!! ;)
would have cost me $80+ a day to hire one so bugger it i bought it.
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good idae able..
i bought one a few years back..
best thing ever.. lift up the van with it move around engines.. move 44 gallon drums of fibreglass resin with it.. never do without it now..
ben
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besides lifting the beddy it will help lift my new 202 onto the engine stand i bought at the same time but we will keep that info from the misses wont we ;)
i would lift it my self but i do not feel like wiping around a hemorrhoid for the next few weeks :o
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G'day
You wimps, get serious and buy a forklift!
I bought a 4.5 ton forklift with sideshift, made a heavy duty set of slippers and I can now pick up the whole van.
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G'day
You wimps, get serious and buy a forklift!
I bought a 4.5 ton forklift with sideshift, made a heavy duty set of slippers and I can now pick up the whole van.
He He - You've got to have the best toys Chris :D
Warren
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hmmmmm that is a brilliant idea chris..
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after consulting John Abbott im going with the 1.3 meter box steel placed under the chassis where the radiator would be....
i have every thing i need and the 202 is painted up and had its seal kit put through it...
by the way has anyone got a spare bedy work manual for sale? i have a 78 if that matters...
will come in handy for front end repair ect ect....
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i have taken off or put to one side with wiring in tact (less confusing...)
steering, alternator, coil, exhaust, shifter, accelerator cable.... all other hoses and things are neatly sitting on top of the 186 so i can see how im to reattach to the 202.
as far as i can see all i have to remove before i can lift the beddy and roll out the front end is
four bolts for front end, 2 on those bars that are on a 45 degree angle, 2 bolts on the back of the gear box and the clutch cable from the bell housing.
anything im forgetting?????? i want to roll it out on the week end...
by the way how does that clutch cable come off? (Holden three speed manual)
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I have never taken a motor out this way but from what I can imagine don't you have to disconnect the steering from the rack and pinion and the brake line
Cheers
joe
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Hey Able, send me a PM for my home phone number I am working on my beddie this weekend so if you need some tips givusa call .... Eddy
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opps yep brake lines.... that could have been a bit messy (thankyou)
and yep ill send a pm to you eddy
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Um not sure if it got mentioned but, fuel line and power cable to the starter.
Clutch cable, slacken of the adjuster and slip off the end of the clutch arm.
And phone Eddy - he knows it all :D
Warren
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well the 186 is out...
(http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=21&g2_itemId=10075)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10076&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10081&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10086&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10091&g2_serialNumber=2)
took a few beers and a few up and downs.... (torsion bar ends catching under the wish bone) but other then that it was pretty straight forward.... after all the advice... ;)
i have it sitting on stands that are placed under the bar/cross member that holds the back end of the gear box, is that a safe place to have them untill i paint up the front end and stick the 202 in?
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i painted up the front end..... and im positioning the 202
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10827&g2_serialNumber=2)
the oil pan seems to be resting on the front end a bit....
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=10832&g2_serialNumber=2)
she will be right? or wood wedge bash time?
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if ur sumps touching the chassis(crossmember) u will need to use the right sump and pickup tube.
u will need 2 use the 186 ones.
while the motors out check the welch plugs are in good nick. brass onesare the go.
marty
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im just thowing an idea out there.
it looks like the right sump to me.
you dont have anything supporting the back of the motor. once the motor and gearbox goes in it will be supported by trany crossmember. so it will lift it up and you should have an inch clearance or something.
at the moment the motor is being supported by your engine mounts and crain yeh?
ben
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yep ben its the stock 202 sump. i have a jack (with a soft wood block) underneath the back now but not in the pic because i needed to remove the crane to lock up the garage.
the one from the 186 sat a little further back but i have just finished painting and putting new seals in the 202 and it will be a shame to have to get the kerosene out again.....
how much lift will it get when bolted up to the gear box so i can simulate with the jack?
would it hurt or buga anything if i gave it a dint in the offending area if i do not get the clearance i need?
how much clearance is enough?
do i need to put lock tight on the four chassis bolt that hold the front end in?
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ask Johnno( John Abbot) for a picture of the sump he took outa his truck,
and had 2 replace with the right 1.
thats 1 way 2 fix the clearance. lol.
marty
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I agree with Ben.
And no it wouldn hurt to dint it a bit , but I would wait till you get it back under the van befor going at it with a hammer.
Warren
im just thowing an idea out there.
it looks like the right sump to me.
you dont have anything supporting the back of the motor. once the motor and gearbox goes in it will be supported by trany crossmember. so it will lift it up and you should have an inch clearance or something.
at the moment the motor is being supported by your engine mounts and crain yeh?
ben
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Do it once do it right. Don't get this far and looking this nice only to smack it with a bit of wood and a hammer. If you were paying for it would you accept that??? for the sake of a bit of kero and some elbow grease make it pretty!
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comon benny you can do it!!! ;)
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Hey Able.....Good to see you getting there. Here is a pic of what the sump looked like when i got my truck. Please dont do this to any sump!. The sump i needed was from a early torana (lc-lj) Try some engine reco places or maybe a wreckers. You will need the longer oil pickup as well.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa315/johnabbott_2007/bashedsump01jpg.jpg)
cheers...johnno ;D
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i will get it back under and install the gear box and if i do not have the clearance i will swap to the 186 sump and pick up. it had enough clearance.
how much clearance is enough and do i put lock tight on the four bolts to join the front end to the chassis?
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thanx Johnno,
i personally wouldnt want a sump like that on my motor.
plus maybe a rego check pinkslip check may fail it with a sump thats been caved in with a donkometer. :),
do the job once and right i say, u will feel more confidence in your van 2.
marty
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i was thinking about the slightest of dints. the one in johns pic looks like it was run over three times and then they kicked it for good measure.
if it come down to that i would use a thick one inch dowel horizontally and make a professional (ish) looking dint or remove the pan completely and use a hammer and dolly....
as you can see from my pic im not out by much and bens theory will probably be correct as it will not only lift up but away.
anyone that does what is shown in john's example is one lazy and unsafe fella and the motor was obviously another two to three inches more forward compared to the cross member then mine.
hey john your pic needs to be in a new section called "mechanical epic fails" :D
clad you spotted and sorted it, i would hate to find that under a new purchase.
thanks for the example!
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I am trying to remember if it was this site or another but you can reverse or replace the oil pickup so that you can cut and weld the sump into a new spot...mmm I think it was in a rod mag somewhere...
I will get back to ya! ???
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i would get that sump off the old 186.
the torana one fits, the rest NOT (i think ;))
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Sumps (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Sumps) for photo comparison
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Worzel, you are right, the Torana fits with about 2" gap from crossmember, I have this on mine, before I had a HQ and it always rubed untill I took to it with a hammer, could not get a Torana at that time, as they are getting hard to find over here.
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Yeah get this Able....The previous owner had hit it that hard, that when i went to undo the sump plug to change the oil, i couldn't because the sump plug was jammed up against the metal thus not letting me get a spanner to it!!!! Bloody idiot!!!! But all better now ;D ;D cheers...johnno
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the 186 that come with the beddy had a 1-2 inch gap so it must be out of a torana?
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Heres a new slant on the sump clearance problem ive had a van with the sump touching the xmember and it turned out to be the track rod bushes were worn out (they get thinner and f/end moves back) new bushes and adjustment and problem solved hope that helps Cheers Neil
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Thats interesting Neil.... I never thought of that one!! ;D
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Heres a new slant on the sump clearance problem ive had a van with the sump touching the xmember and it turned out to be the track rod bushes were worn out (they get thinner and f/end moves back) new bushes and adjustment and problem solved hope that helps Cheers Neil
This would push the front end back but it would need to be in the van to effect clearance,as, as the front end moves back the gearbox mount would have to stop the motor and box from moving back, thus distorting the engine mounts in order for it to move forward on the cross member.
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i lifted up again today and rolled the front end back under...
as i slowly lowered the beddy down i had no problems (making sure those two torsion? rod things were not getting caught)...
when i got it all the way down resting on the chassis i noticed it does not like sitting properly... i take it it naturally sits with a small gap at the back untill you tighten the bolts?
the front end seems to slanted back creating a gap at the back of where the top plate and the chassis meet. this leaves a imposable distance for the torsion? bar things bolts...
after bolting it up it pulled up straight and i was able to attach those rods...
this is all normal?
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sometimes ...don't panic Id check that its not jammed up on the rear lip of the block or the torsion bars ...If you think that its clear all round and there's nothing fouling up ... then gently rock the body side to side at the front and it may just slip down onto the pins .... worst case you may just have left a bolt or nut on top of the plate? as you rolled it under
......er ....ooops ok I own up Iv done that before ....er yea johno its goes with droping the sump plug into the oil drain tin :-\ :-\
It could also be how or where your jack is placed under the front x member.
hope these little things help.
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how do you leave a bolt on the top plate craig? do you put bolts back in when you have the front end out? gotta get into doing that. i loose bolts all the time// always got another van to pull it off lol..
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lol....I have too many coffee breaks and a bad habit of putting things down then I forget where I put them!
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God I so wanna say something........ ::)
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I bet Jill is always finding them all over the house (can hear her saying" Craig do know where this came from?") ;D ;D
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it pulled up straight once the bolts were done up tight...
i had a jack holding up the back end of the engine (no gear box yet).... with some soft wood between.
im fanatical with the bagging and labeling of bolts and lining them up on a board before i reassemble anything.
a friend has a 173 with m20 that he wants gone, the motor was not running but it has a larger/different shaped bell housing. (has rectangle breather slot where the bell and motor meet) so i will rat all bits of it and store them in oily rags.
he has a very nice second hand flywheel with zero wear that goes with...
but on this 173 it has a fuel pump with no bulb..... he said it must come of a later model commodore?
its flat on top like some one undid the screws on a bulb one to remove the bulb and the put a flat plate back in.
ring a bell with anyone? any advantages with this sort of fuel pump?
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yeh Johnno and Craig saying no,mmm.mmm I think that was off the blue one, no wait its from the white one, no wait its from the pickup,no wait its from the explorer,mmm, no wait...........
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Able
I had to buy an new fuel pump for the camper, it had a glass bowl one on it, but the shop only had a late model one with no glass bowl ($50 cheaper though) - it was for a comodoor and worked fine.
Now the ef'n carby - well thats a different story :(
Warren
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Fuel Pumps
No difference..i had to replace my old glass fuel pump....the one usually on red motors with a new one
the newer ones were i think ...off blue/black? engines
Same job done..just cant watch your fuel looking all pretty thru the glass bowl..
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I bet Jill is always finding them all over the house (can hear her saying" Craig do know where this came from?") ;D ;D
there's nothing wrong with left overs gee u kids are spoilt .......lol
able
"i had a jack holding up the back end of the engine (no gear box yet).... with some soft wood between"
you may find now that the bolts are done up that you might have to just release the jack a little and take some pressure off it as you'll find the motors don't sit sq
from memory we had to do the same on daves camper motor
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did an engine swap today. took longer than expected (in between making fibreglass bits too lol)
here are some photos before i head out in the freezing (1:30am) finish it off before i have to leave for big day work at 6am. fun:(
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2503.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2504.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2505.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2508.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2509.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2513.jpg)
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wow some really bad photos there ben. and too small.sorry lol
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benny you need a BIG shed ::) ::) with a big heater ;D
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ben does you front end need to be pulled straight or does the front end sit straight when lowering?