BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: BlackBedford on September 14, 2008, 09:19:11 PM
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G'day
As a fan of the 202 here is a good article from Street Machine about getting more out of them:
http://www.carpoint.com.au/Tig/Minisite/Minisite.aspx?alias=carpointau&id=7229
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very helpfu lthanks blackbeddy!!
ben
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Interesting stuff
Thanks Chris
Warren
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G'day
To give you how much faith I have in the 202, I have the following CF conversions at hand:
Chev 327 and powerglide
Holden 308 and T400
Holden 253 and Trimatic
VR V6 3800 and T700
P76 V8 and BW35
plus others.
My new CFL van will be setup a blue 202 with Yella Terra Head and roller rockers and a few other goodies.
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thats true faith chris id be backing the the leyland.
;)
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G'day
I want to go manual, so I want plenty of pedal room. I seriously contemplated the P76 but I see the oil pump is the issue. It sits right where the steering rack goes. I have played with fitting a Commodore oil pump as I have been told that blokes in NZ got it working OK. I have a P76 motor with a 3.9 EFI manifold and a motor with a Willpower manifold and GasResearch throttle body. I also have a Celica steel case conversion and a Supra conversion, so I have given the P76 serious thought.
But then I realised that a mildy modded 202 gives plenty of grunt.
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can i ask why you opted for the 202 rather than the later v6?
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G'day
I bought a VS sedan for $500 as a good runner. I then started buying the conversion bits to fit the motor in a CF. The budget started blowing out. I started reading the V6 forums about people putting V6s in other vehicles and some of the problems and costs involved. I put the project on hold.
I was in Sydney last year and bought a CFL truck with an engineered V6 conversion that had cost over $20,000 and was driveable but not quite finished.
Sounds a lot but the money included:
Engineers report
fully reconditioned Higgenbottom V6
fully reconditioned VR electronic T700
rewiring to suit
over $1000 on dual fuel pumps, header tank and plumbing.
Chevy 12 bolt dual wheel diff
Transit power steering
Disc brakes, B&M shifter, and other little bits.
I had high expectations, but I was disappointed.
To drive, it was alright, but not really that much better than the hot 202.
For all the complexity and cost of the V6, I don't think it was worth it.
The power steering was magic though.
As a foot note the front end had been done up and the balljoints welded in very heavily. They failed and I suffered front end collapse.
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Chris,
As far as economy is concerned would the 3.8 litre V6 be far more economical to run or only slightly more economical to run than the 202?
Economy is key and as I am tossing up which way to go with my engine conversion you have got me thinking...
Should I just stick with the 202 and work it - no engineering required...
Jock
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why did they weld them in for black beddy???? thats sounds a bit silly to me.. more sillyer to have the front end collapse because of it..
ben
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my 202 blue uses less fuel than mr brothers v6
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wow thats interesting.. is that because your on gas and he is on petrol??
or are you talking Miles per gallon?.
cheers
ben
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wow thats interesting.. is that because your on gas and he is on petrol??
or are you talking Miles per gallon?.
cheers
ben
Jeez Ben you don't look old enough to know what miles per gallon is - I thought youd be a litres per kilometer kinda guy :D
It is interesting though, for good preformance and economy a hot six may be the way to go, and think of all the engineers costs you save, I think it would equal the cost of an engine rebuild.
Warren
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true true about the engineering costs.. $600 for the cert. pretty expensive..
but like craig says. a standard v6 puts out 130kws.. 202 standard is like 85kws..
fair difference hey.. me n jock are both really confused which way to go with motors for our vans..
my old man talks in miles per gallon.. its funny cause other mates will say yeh my car does 10lt to 100kms and im like yeh what is taht in mile per gallon? and there like what is mile per gallon?? haha
just like i have a full set of metric ring spanners and sockets.. and i flippen never use them!!! haha
ben
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true true about the engineering costs.. $600 for the cert. pretty expensive..
but like craig says. a standard v6 puts out 130kws.. 202 standard is like 85kws..
fair difference hey.. me n jock are both really confused which way to go with motors for our vans..
Yeah it is interesting I had played with the idea of a V6, but going by the artical in this thread, and balancing power verses ecconimy and cost, well I suppose it depends on what you want doesnt it, a tyre shredder or daily transport.
For me being an old fart, and tight for money, a good warm six seems like a great option. and put some money into power steerting and Boris would be a sweet combo.
Warren
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yeh im not lead foot.. just want to be able to tow a bedford car trailer to bring home all those wonderful rusty beddies in people paddocks!
hehe
ben
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Well maybe a hot 6 on gas and a 5 speed would be a good combo ;)
All without the cost of a engineer.
Warren
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Hey Warren The hot 202 is the go but if you are going to do any towing Auto is the go I would like to find out if there is an adaptor kit to bolt a Holden Jatco 4 speed O Drive auto to the 202 you could keep your low ratio diff & the O Drive 4th would give you good cruising ratio Cheers Reid
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whats the jatco 4 speed fella?/
ben
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They are also in mazdas but they were behind the comodor that was powered by the Nissan 6 motor they are supposed to be very strong Cheers Reid
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could be the gas...but its been rebuilt for gas
gas cam...10.-1 commpression etc
thermo fans..extractors 2 1/2" exhaust efi manifold and dizzy.........
goes well for a 202 ............never believed a 202 could go this well
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G'day
I do a lot of high speed miles across country roads, so performance and economy are issues for me. Yes the big V8s went well, but front ends flogged out quickly and fuel costs were high when fuel was cheap.
For me the total cost of a V6 conversion just doesn't add up for little or no on road performance gains.
I used my old CFS 202 3 speed manual on gas to retrieve a CFL truck and a shed full of spares. I calculated the total weight as:
CFS van with tools etc 1400kg
Car Trailer 700kg
CFL truck with steel tray 2200kg
Filled van with parts 1000kg
Filled tray with more parts 1000kg
And I drove it over 60ks to get home. It was a slow trip, but I did it.
Regards
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thats almost 7 ton!!!! far out!!
reminds me of the time i bought a CFL van i went borrowed a car trailer with my CFS got there and put the plates from the CFS onto the CFL.. put the CFS on the car trailer and loaded pretty much a van in parts into the back of both vans.. so would have been not too far off that hey.. lucky the CFL still had the Orig diff!!!
1400 for the CFS
1500 for the CFL
700 for the trailer
1000 for the parts..
thats almost 5 ton!! far out! no way cant belie it!
i remember one traffic lights.. they went green i put my foot on the gas.. we didnt even make it through the interecetion before the traffic lights had turned red again lol!!
ben
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now seems like a good time to ask.....
What,s involved in going from red to blue?
just sump and engine cover? or do the mounts need modifying???
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same mounts..
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G'day
The motors are basically the same especially below the head gasket, so the mounts do not need modifying.
To go from red to blue you need to change the sump and oil pickup if you get a motor from a Commodore. Blue motors were also in WB utes and vans.
plus...
The flywheel is different in a blue motor and the best solution is to use a red flywheel as clutch plates for blue motors are more expensive and harder to find when doing conversions.
The blue motor has a 12 port head that came in 2 types, one with air injection and one without. The one without air injectors is less prone to cracking. Some heads do not have the injectors but have plugs in the holes so watch out for that one.
The inlet manifold is larger on a blue motor and it is worth using it even if you have to make a bigger engine cover. Throw the Varijet carby and put on a Weber off a XE/XF Falcon for better performance and economy.
The outlet manifold is also larger and in 2 pieces but you would be much better to get a set of extractors.
While blue motors rev much better due to the counterbalanced crankshaft, they have a habit of throwing number 2 or 3 conrod out the side of the block. ARP rodbolts cure this and are are highly recommended.
There is also a black motor (VK Commodore) which is a blue motor with a few changes including optional EFI.
Identifying A red/blue/black motor can be an issue. There is a casting on the side of the block that is either 202 or 3.3. The 202 casting indicates a red motor, however some HZ red motors had 3.3 cast into them. Generally though 3.3 will indicate a blue/black motor.
You can fit a red head on a blue motor but there is a couple of holes to be drilled in the head or block to match them up, but the blue head is much better anyway.
There is lots more that can be said about the motors but this is a start.
Regards
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Well I must say up front I was never a big fan of the 202 as I always thought they were a lazy, thirstyish motor, however was just over at the local speed shop (jeep broke!!) and got to talking about 202's, he said he had just finished one that had 235 rwh (300 @ flywheel) which when reving at 7 grand you could sit a glass of wine (posh drinker me thinks) on top as it was that smooth.
Those sorts of figures have surely opened my eyes to the potential of the good old 202.
Just glad I didn't have to finance it
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G'day
The 202 can be made to go real hard.
I bought a 3.3 black EFI out of the Trading Post for $400, that had well over $7000 spent on it, and man does it have some go in it.
It was on the Mornington Peninsula in Vic, and cost me $200 to get it home, but was well worth it.
Note a Toyota Supercharger will fit on a 202 in a CF for even more fun.
Regards
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202 blue has electronic ignition
neads 12V at the coil. so you will have to fit a relay
http://gallery.oldholden.com/ReaperHR/HRWorkguides/EngineIgnition/Blue_Electronic_Ignition/?g2_page=7
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Hey photol,
there's a bedofrd on here with an RB30 fitted already. Once you add a turbo, it's not really going to assist you with economy much! As it's function is to ram goodies down the throught of your engine. My mate has a Nissen Stegea wagon with a turbo RB25. The wagon rips but the economy is crap! But I'm sure it's most likely cheaper than my Chev! I'll have to do a run with him some day and do a $ for $ comparisin. Porr bloke paid twice as mush for his wagon than what I paid for the van and when ever I pull up next to him, no one even looks at the Stegea again. :D
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Yes it was the VL ;)
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Hey photol,
. My mate has a Nissen Stegea wagon with a turbo RB25. The wagon rips but the economy is crap! But I'm sure it's most likely cheaper than my Chev! I'll have to do a run with him some day and do a $ for $ comparisin. Porr bloke paid twice as mush for his wagon than what I paid for the van and when ever I pull up next to him, no one even looks at the Stegea again. :D
Poor Mr Mc Thundacat..that stegea flys but hey it aint no bedford
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It would be very hard to add a turbo manifold and turbo - no room....
(http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&action=dlattach;topic=255.0;attach=202;image)
(http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&action=dlattach;topic=255.0;attach=204;image)
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Hi Jock, There is plenty, plenty room up under the van ;) put the turbo down under the van somewhere. this will also assist in keeping it cool! 8) You could mount the intercooler horizonatally under the van with thermo on top pumping the aire through and the hot air will be dragged under, down the back and away ;D ;D ;D. I have fantisies about this, but twin ;D This will have to wait untill after the trip around Oz, if this happens next year.
Hey Marky, where you live G? I'm gonna check your gallery again. I think we were maybe talking about you yesturday. He was telling me I should tell you about this website. Looks like you're already here :P
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What? Something like this.....
(http://images.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0502_turbo_02_z.jpg)
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i woulda thought that aircleaner
would get full of dust and water (if driven in rain) from the back wheel.
marty
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alrighty all you 202 freaks, I have decided to put the black efi in the beddie campa and in good faith had a little tinkle on the internet and whoa hold up there sonny boy, I never realised how much is involved, I'm hoping that over the next coupla months I will get some guidance by the the beddie brotherhood, putting the motor on the front end and wheeling it under the van is the easy bit ..... but how do you make it go with the brmmm brmmm noise? Firstly, apparently I have to adapt a return fuel line into the fuel tank ..... how? has anyone done this and if so can you please asisst with advice/hints and pics cause me is very simple man with very simple understanding of mecahnicals ... hopefully me get van on road making brmmm brmmm before Geelong Nats ...... please ?? ???
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Hey Eddy why dont you give the fuel injection a miss put on a carby manifold off a blue 3.3 & a XE falcon webber carby too easy Or go staight gas Cheers Reid
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Nice pic of the turbo! Who's van is this? I was thinking of putting it (or them he, he) either side of the gearbox or tailshaft. Basicaly connecting them striaght up to the flange on the ned of the extractors.
photol, that may have been bucket instrucions ;) but you're right you deffinately get more output than without and in that sence less fuel wastage or usage for the same output (bad explanation on my part) by creating a more potent mix in your cylinder, but i would think that you would have to increase consumption to feed the increased revs. Still don't know if I've sexplained myself very well :P
Hey eddy, to run a return line to your tank, you'll have to remove it and have it steam cleaned for atleast 24 hours so it's safe for drilling (after the cleaning if your still worried you can always fill it with water then drill). Drill a hole in the top (towards the back) to fit your return line. You could have a nut welded to the top of the hole so you could thread in a hose fitting or have a hose fitting welded into hole.
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Tweaker......um....yeah...sort of.....I think so.....are you saying that fuel consumption increases no matter what ?even ginger driving won't help ? ....so that super charging....is just a sheer quest for grunt......and in no way helps economy? ....unless we're talking the oil economy.........what is really interesting is how quiet the V8 owners are on this subject of economy
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The economy of a turbocharged motor is inversly proportionalto the weight of your right foot.
At lower revs the exhaust gas is moving slower so the compressor (turbo charger) is spinning slower, making less boost, and therefore using less fuel and being more economical.
As the revs rise there is more exhaust gas flowing, spinning the compressor faster forcing more air/fuel mix into the motor.
Drive sedatley, use less fuel, put the foot down, use more fuel.
Turbocharging is a good use of an otherwise lost force (exhaust gas) and its power increases logrithmacally with the speed of the exhaust gas - more revs - more gas flow - more boost.
Where as supercharging is a direct connection to the crankshaft and actually consumes power to drive it, and can only give a set boost that is determined by the drive pulley ratio's
If I remebr correctly it was common for the 3xy roller vans to be turbo'ed sixes rather than V8's - it was a simple bolt on horse power thing.
Warren
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Economy ::) ::) ::) I knew him once....... :P Hang on that may have been a dream I had or I might be getting confused with the other dream which had twin turbos in it. ::)
;D
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Thamks Warren for an excellent explanation....Tweaker have they increased your medication???....I'm moving to your place..... :D
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Thamks Warren for an excellent explanation....Tweaker have they increased your medication???....I'm moving to your place..... :D
Lol....... Oops that reminds me.......