BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: Poochimama on October 11, 2011, 05:06:28 PM
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Hello agaaaaain my bugga buddys,
Senario:
We bought the 202blue engine that puuured in my mates commodore.
Removed the original 186red from the beddy,put the 202inn.
Now its runs rough,running rich/petrol smoke.
My poor brother talks to the carbi mob,they said its not the engine if it was all good running before ,its the carbi,bring it down for a reco,picked up the reco carbi $$$, fitted and timed it at home,STILL running shit? >:( It was to rough to drive it to the carbi mob,they test it on another engine there.
My brothers tryn to think what 186motor /leads etc he used on the 202 now inn,hes thinkn maybe one of the leads etc are not compatible? Hes says its still getting to much petrol?
Also only thing my brother did when he took the head off the 202 motor before putting it into the Beddy is remove the sludge inside,cleaned it properly.
SO...any ideas whats gone wrong Beddy boys??? ???
Thanku for always helping me,
cheers
shell
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MMmmm....Leaking inlet manifold gasket? Crack in manifold itself?? :-\ :-\
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Did you use the same carby/manifold off the blue202? or the stuff off the 186?
Timing, vacum hose to advance unit, voltage to coil (blue 202 runs elec ignition which from memory requires more volts)
Holding your tongue the wrong way - BUGAd if I know :)
Warren
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YES,the carbi's from the 202motor,mates commodore!
And warren...hes biting his tongue hard now..
he is NOT HAPPPPPY JANNNNN! :-[
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Gidday, to test for leaking manifold get a can of engine start or similar and while running spray around the manifolds if the engine picks up then this is where your leak is. Another thing to check is the gasket between the inlet and outlet manifolds, from memory if these leak it can cause it to run rough. One of our members put a blue 3.3 motor out of a commodore into his cf bedford truck and had this problem and found it was the link between the inlet and outlet manifolds, from memory he said it was a bugger to seal.
Cheers Jeff
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THANKU for helping ;D
Warren,he said its still a 12volt battery so hes not sure what u are sayn?
And yes, he said thanx...he will check the manifold tomorrow,
Thanx again,
shell
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blue motor dizzys nead 12volts at the coil...
you have to fit a relay
do a search..for fitting blue dizzy etc...
http://gallery.oldholden.com/ReaperHR/HRWorkguides/EngineIgnition/Blue_Electronic_Ignition/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/ReaperHR/HRWorkguides/EngineIgnition/Blue_Electronic_Ignition/)
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OH,ok..ill tell him,
and thanx for the link! ;D
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Man hope u get it working...thats just annoying...
just on a side note pooch, what did u end up doing with the 186 you took out? was it stuffed, just curious, as i know someone who could make use of it...
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YEAH it IS sooooo frustrating, i feel for my brother as hes done so much work on it for me :-\
Yep steve said sell the lot:
186Red Motor originally in beddy $100 It went fine from Qld to Melb,but steve said he hasnt had time to take head of and see condition of it!
Pair extractors for 186 $50-
Also a warn 202 other motor for parts $50
2 x 202 trimatics $50ea
He was going to put the lot on ebay,but if u guys want them?
Live near the Tulla airport.
Steve: 0415-950-995
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Poochie
Are you seling individaully or as a whole.
I'd be interested in one of the trimatics.
Warren
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OH and the 186 was originally in the Beddy, we drove from Qld to Melb in it 6months ago, everything else fell apart on the way home except for the engine,lol..it went fine BUT steve said he hasnt taken the head off it to see what condition it is,hes too busy cursing the 202 at the moment!!?
I wanted a stronger motor for the weight of the van is why we took the 186 out!
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OH god, ok sell em all seperately ,lol.
Both are 202 trimatics,$50 each
Steve:0415-950-995,he can tell u all details!
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Oh Poochie it's not true what they say about you :D
I'll be in contact with Steve then ;)
Warren
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Yes i am a BITCH warren,lol..
Beautiful
Intelligent
Trustworthy
Courageous
Hot
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Gidday, to test for leaking manifold get a can of engine start or similar and while running spray around the manifolds if the engine picks up then this is where your leak is. Another thing to check is the gasket between the inlet and outlet manifolds, from memory if these leak it can cause it to run rough. One of our members put a blue 3.3 motor out of a commodore into his cf bedford truck and had this problem and found it was the link between the inlet and outlet manifolds, from memory he said it was a bugger to seal.
Cheers Jeff
Yep, he just did that Jeff,no leaks,...
Forgot to tell u all its back fireing when it warms up then cuts out wn it gets hotter,that telln steve it could be that the valves might not be closing fully,yet to take rocket cover off and have a look at that idea,BLOODY BEDFORDS,does it ever ennnnd,just want to drive the bloody thing,lol! :'(
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Yes i am a BITCH warren,lol..
Beautiful
Intelligent
Trustworthy
Courageous
Hot
Well thats one way of describing it :o ;D ::)
Warren
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blue motor dizzys nead 12volts at the coil...
you have to fit a relay
do a search..for fitting blue dizzy etc...
http://gallery.oldholden.com/ReaperHR/HRWorkguides/EngineIgnition/Blue_Electronic_Ignition/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/ReaperHR/HRWorkguides/EngineIgnition/Blue_Electronic_Ignition/)
He said its the original beddy coil thingy&distributor,he didnt want to touch the wireing on it as it was all fine when the 186 was in it?
Its back firing too ,he checked the valves ,thr fine and as soon as u turn it on,once its warmed up it cuts out..when it gets hot?
STILL cant work it out, IT SUX>>>HELLLLLP,MORE IDEAS PLEEEEASE,lol :'(
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did the 186 have a coil from a blue motor???
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have you got a good earth from the battery to the motor?
i found a friend was having power n spark problems and i checked it out,
found he had a very bad n dirty earth to the motor from the battery.
(causes the motor to run rough with minimum spark, causing unburnt fuel and black buildup in exhurst)
i always put a new battery earth cable on all my vehicles, nice thick ones.
on my beddy,s i usually go from the battery earth to the back of the gearbox, (its shortest distance from the battery)
hope this helps.
cheers marty
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have you got a good earth from the battery to the motor?
i found a friend was having power n spark problems and i checked it out,
found he had a very bad n dirty earth to the motor from the battery.
(causes the motor to run rough with minimum spark, causing unburnt fuel and black buildup in exhurst)
i always put a new battery earth cable on all my vehicles, nice thick ones.
on my beddy,s i usually go from the battery earth to the back of the gearbox, (its shortest distance from the battery)
hope this helps.
cheers marty
Steve said he doesnt understand why u would attach the earth lead to the gear box,when it normally attaches straight to the body???
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did the 186 have a coil from a blue motor???
Steve said No....(Im the secretary here,hes crap at typing,lol!!)
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i ment dizzy...
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have you got a good earth from the battery to the motor?
i found a friend was having power n spark problems and i checked it out,
found he had a very bad n dirty earth to the motor from the battery.
(causes the motor to run rough with minimum spark, causing unburnt fuel and black buildup in exhurst)
i always put a new battery earth cable on all my vehicles, nice thick ones.
on my beddy,s i usually go from the battery earth to the back of the gearbox, (its shortest distance from the battery)
hope this helps.
cheers marty
Steve said he doesnt understand why u would attach the earth lead to the gear box,when it normally attaches straight to the body???
Because the engine is isolted from the body by the engine mounts.
Going via the body and then to the motor can create losses due to poor or corroded connections, so direct from battery to motor/box removes that likely hood.
You still need an earth to the body as well for the other circuits to work though.
Warren
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AHHHHH ok steve said thanku! :o
He will sus that one out tomorrow.
Thanx for all putting yr boof heads together boys,U ROCK!
Cheers,
shell ;D
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have you got a good earth from the battery to the motor?
i found a friend was having power n spark problems and i checked it out,
found he had a very bad n dirty earth to the motor from the battery.
(causes the motor to run rough with minimum spark, causing unburnt fuel and black buildup in exhurst)
i always put a new battery earth cable on all my vehicles, nice thick ones.
on my beddy,s i usually go from the battery earth to the back of the gearbox, (its shortest distance from the battery)
hope this helps.
cheers marty
Steve said he doesnt understand why u would attach the earth lead to the gear box,when it normally attaches straight to the body???
yes this is correct, there is an earth connection to the body, (as warren said ,this is for the lights and other body circuts, etc ) but you need a good earth from the neg battery terminal to the motor or gearbox for the engine coil etc to get full power, thus giving the ignition great spark.
and the back of the gearbox is in line with the battery.(so only a short cable is needed,) make sure its a good thick battery cable though and long enough to not be too tight )
eyelet both ends , put it onto the battery clamp bolt n tighten and i use the original 4 speed shift mount bolt hole on a 4 speed, possibly the rear gearbox mount bolt on an auto ,(gearbox side of the rubber mount though.)
this might fix your problem, here,s hopeing,
cheers marty
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Heya,
i dont normally earth the motor direct to the battery, i earth the battery to the body and the motor to the body, which is similarly good as the battery direct to the motor, although cant hurt to have a direct line.
Poochi, we really need to know exactly what you got with the new motor, and what you used, as well as what was replaced with items from the previous motor.
Did the motor come with manifolds (intake and exhaust), distributor, coil, plug wires, spark plugs, head.. etc
The more info the better.
Everything you changed, or even unbolted and then rebolted together is a possible source for problems.
Common issues with the blue motor/red motor swap is the fact that red motors use resistor wires (or a ceramic resistor) to reduce the voltage down from 12volt to prevent burning the points.
You were provided a link on this so without me following the link i hope it has shed some light on the fact.
If you are running a resistor coil, on a HEI dizzy you will likely have dramas. most coils will say 'use with resistor' so check that.
Have a look at your spark plugs, the colour usually tells a story however at this point you are more interested in the gap. You can set them to 28thou in the short term to cross them off the list..
Now you say its running rich, was the carby the same carby that came with the blue motor?
Most carby shops will buga a carby beyond repair.. not all shops but most.. things we've seen come out of performance carby shops intended to be used on race cars have gone straight in the bin at huge expense to the racers.
If they merely gave it a clean then thats fine, but i could tell you a number of no-no's to look out for which will sound like jibberish.
Does the carby leak any fuel onto the manifold? if so it may be a leaking needle and seat, or an incorrect float level.
You can easily change the jet to make it run leaner, however i dont think you should need to if it was running fine on the blue motor previously, if from the red motor i'd think you'd need to richen it.
Do you have an adjustable jet, or fixed jet?
Check you dont have any broken valve springs, they're easy to check with the rocker cover off..
What did you actually do to the head when it was off?
if you cleaned it with the valves out, you should relap the valves so they make a good seat - you should do this every time the head is off regardless really..
What timing are you running on the distributor? and have you changed it since if was in the old car?
Do you have a proper count back timing light, or just a standard light that flashes at one speed?
a bit to keep you going anyway.. im tired of typing :)
I hope this helps
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WOW,You certainly know yr shit,lol!
THANKU as we are STILL having problems after every other buggers suggestion,we still havent eliminated this dam problem.tried them all?
Its got steve stumped!
He said he will do all u said and get back to u, so grateful for everyones input as we eventually HAVE to find this bloody problem if everyone else gives thr know how!
Cheers
Shell&Steve,Back soon with an update & more info for u W.A man. :)
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YEAH it IS sooooo frustrating, i feel for my brother as hes done so much work on it for me :-\
Yep steve said sell the lot:
186Red Motor originally in beddy $100 It went fine from Qld to Melb,but steve said he hasnt had time to take head of and see condition of it! NOW SOLD.
Pair extractors for 186 $50- NOW SOLD.
Also a warn 202 other motor for parts $50
2 x 202 trimatics $50ea Both still avail-
He was going to put the lot on ebay,but if u guys want them?
Live near the Tulla airport.
Steve: 0415-950-995
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Hey Pooch you said your bro took the head off the 202 to give it a cleanup when he reinstalled have you checked if you are getting oil up to the rockers My hydrolic cam followers were all gumed up & wasnt getting oil to the top of the motor so I had to put new cam followers in now its getting plenty up there If the cam followers arnt pumping up that will give you a miss There's another thing to check Cheers Reid
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Hi Reid,
Thanx for yr thoughts, just asked steve and he said its all oiled up nicely,he made sure of all that whn putting it back together!
He thought he FINALLY found the problem just b4,the rotary botton thingy was very small and felt it wasnt hitting the sides to spark properly, just replaced it with a new proper size one and now its backfiring even worse,like gun shot noises,things are getting worse,we cant even drive it to a tune up guy its so bad now,ARRRRRRRGH ..just want my poor brother to have some peace with this bloody bedford,its getting me down now seeing him so stressed for the last 10days 10hrs a day hes tryn to work whats wrong!:(
Thanku for yr suggestion, weve eliminated everyones suggestions so far as we have tried them all,except for the W.A holden guy...Steves yet to do what he said it may be, i just want it solved for my bro sanity,poor thing!
Thanku
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just another thought, it is a blue 202 motor and not a black 202 motor that came out in the VK commodores painted blue, the reason is the black motors had that knock sensor it thingy in the bell housing and they were notorious for causing problems with tuning.
Cheers Jeff
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Are you sure youve got the fireing order right for the direction the disi turns
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Are you sure youve got the fireing order right for the direction the disi turns
YEP, steve said!
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Im sorry I surgesterd that but Iv done it wrong & timeing is very important if youve had the disi out its real easy to get one tooth out & it takes some head scratching to work out what youve done wrong
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hey pooch thanks for doing a good sale on the 186 with my old man. Hope the dosh helps u out. I am praying for u and ur nightmare situation... :-[ :-[
i did that the other day reid, put 2 & 3the wrong way round on a 4 cylnder. Couldnt figure out why air was blowing out the top of the carby....whoops....bu then again i am still a newb...
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Im sorry I surgesterd that but Iv done it wrong & timeing is very important if youve had the disi out its real easy to get one tooth out & it takes some head scratching to work out what youve done wrong
REID,
DONT be silly, we are OPEN to ANY and every suggestion, one of us HAS to hit the bloody jackpot soon.PLEASE,lol!
Brainstorm Beddy Boys, keep em coming& the winner get a willi wonka gold ticket,ok, make it a box of chocolates u have to share with ME,..OHhhh OK and some beers THENNNN ;D
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hey pooch thanks for doing a good sale on the 186 with my old man. Hope the dosh helps u out. I am praying for u and ur nightmare situation... :-[ :-[
i did that the other day reid, put 2 & 3the wrong way round on a 4 cylnder. Couldnt figure out why air was blowing out the top of the carby....whoops....bu then again i am still a newb...
No probs Jim, Tonys a kool ol hoon he told me,lol!
YES all money i raised goes towards Stevespaddedcell.com.au,
Thanku ;D
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Did you use the manifold off the 186, someone on this site once said the 202 manifold was different to the 186 one, just a idea to consider
Cheers
Joe
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the harmonic ballancer center hasnt spun a bit inside the outer and giving you a out of line timimg mark has it?
sometimes the dissy caps can have hairline cracks that fill up with lead dust from the center of the cap coil contact causing spark to track across the cap to wrong sparkplug leads as well.( this will cause backfiring as the exhurst or inlet valves on the offending cylinders will still be open.)
carberator floats can leak and fill up with fuel and sink also causing dramas,
cheers marty
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is the choke getting suck on?
the stromberg would of had a manual choke and the blue motor varajet carb is electric.
all so have you done a compression test on the engine since the issue started.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
STEVE FOUND THE PROBLEM,FINNNNNNALLLLY,YAY,YAAAAAAAAY,WOOT WOOT!!!FINALLY,THANKGOD!
So here goes:
Appears we have now cured the problem, it appeared to of been two to three different things.
1)Amazingly discovered a mix up in the dizzy parts,and it was running with the wrong rotor button.
It had a 1/4" gap between the button and the contact points inside the dizzy cap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???
This explain the weak spark,LOL!
Put in a new button and guess what..It still ran like shit.
2) Then found a hissing noise from under the carb insulator plate!
The carbi bloke said to put it on the opposite way to the way i originally had it.
Turns out this exposed a slot in the plate and instant air vacuum leak!
So i went back to the way i had it originally weeks ago AND GUESS WHAT ..NO MORE AIR LEAK!
Its now running smooth ;D I just need to time it accurately with a timing light.
3) Im now looking at the pcv value,it could be sticking???
HUGE THANKYOU TO BUGAS THAT JUMPED IN TO HELP US,and thanks MATTE for all your knowledge too....REALLY APPRECIATE IT ALL!!
Cheer Steve ...
" I need a beer to bloody celebrate,and adopt my sister to another family,lol"
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YAaa good one guys I always said you have to be crazy to own a BEDFORD but they keep the brain active haha
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THANKS for warning me REID,lol..could of told me b4 i bought the bloody thing,lol,UM actually steve warned me NOT to buy it on Internet coz it was in Qld and could see it!!?? >:( :-[
I can laugh now but it was getting me down seeing my brother in the garage day n night over n over sooo frustrated he couldnt work it out?
He now has finally left the garage with a smile and is sitting down relaxing eating and whatchn races on tv like a normal human again,yay!
Now i can relax n stop feeln guilty, :'(......yay!
It sounds so dam SEXY,im confident to drive it now,lol...CANT WAAAAAAAAIT! ;D
Thanx again Reid,
I LOVE THIS CLUB<IT ROCKS!