BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Disk Brakes => Topic started by: exbedford on June 18, 2011, 08:28:46 PM
-
Just a query about the common HQ disc brake conversion. It seems clear that many perople using HQ discs on latter model stub axles are using ford bearings in order to not require machining of the disc to suit bedford bearings. However, I have researched the sizes and found that the ford bearing ID is too big. It is 21.98mm ID whereas the bedford stud id 21.43mm diameter. So instead of using the ford bearing (LM12749), the correct bearing is the Pontiac transam bearings which is a perfect fit (LM12748) 21.43mm ID 45.237mm OD. Can anyone confirm this? It seems there is a lot of talk on here about bearing numbers but has anyone actually measured and checked sizes. The ford/potiac cup is the same (LM12710). I know the lm12748 is not common in Australia, but it would be worth paying a little extra for the correct bearing right.
-
It depends on what stubaxel you have everdently there are 2 sizes mine was the large 1inch diameter stub & falcon bearing was perfect Mine is a 1976 model
-
Yes, there are two stub axles. The outer bearing ID is different. One (the pre june 1973 model) is 1 inch diameter, the other post june 1973 is 27/32 of an inch (21.43mm).
It seems if people are using the ford bearings they are using the worng ones. Yes , they do appear to fit well, but if anyone can tell me thay they are a perfect fit, i suggest they remove their bearings and check the slack between the bearing and stub axle shaft. Half a mm of play does not make a perfect fit. The LM124749 is the ford bearing = 21.96mm ID.
-
I've just put a vernier on an old outer wheel bearing off my 78 SWB that I had lying on a shelf in the workshop and the ID is a shade under 26mm. Am I confused ???
-
Hi exbedford I have checked back in my posts on my brakes & I used xe falcon INNER bearings which are the same as standard bedford inner bearings & i used standard bedford outer bearings & machined the hub out to suit Same as the castlemain HQ deal only I used VH commodor hubs & the xe falcon bearing fitted perfect no machining just had to get a inner seal to fit as the bedford seal had too big OD to fit VH hub Any bearing place could doo that Honestly dont know why your stuffing around with HQ stuff The brakes on mine are fantastic & getting better with use Cheers Reid
-
Sorry for my ignorance/inexperience.
But I would like a question answered please. I know it's probably been answered before, and it will be common knowledge to most of you.
Question is: I have purchased a 77 CFS Beddy, it has a disc brake front end. HQ I think.
Does it need an engineers cert for a blue slip for rego.
Thanking you all muchly in advance.
Thanks.
....Rich....
-
Does it need an engineers cert for a blue slip for rego.
technically yes:) why i say that i dont know anyone with an engineers for there disc brakes. id suggest the reason people get away with it is it looks standard and every car has disc brakes dont they?
-
yeah it depends who u take it too...as some guys wouldnt even know what is standard on a beddie ;D.......common sense would tell u disc over drums are far safer... ;)
-
Thanks heaps !!!!
Very much appreciated. I'll wing it and see what happens on Thursday, thats when booked in for blue slip.
Thanks heaps, I was starting to panic a bit.
Will see what happens now.
Ta
Cheers.
....Rich....
-
Does it need an engineers cert for a blue slip for rego.
technically yes:) why i say that i dont know anyone with an engineers for there disc brakes. id suggest the reason people get away with it is it looks standard and every car has disc brakes dont they?
i have one
-
restorid: when are you going to start selling complete kits? ;)
-
please, dont know who 2 ask 2 make me 1 or wat they will charge me 2 make 1
-
whats a disk brake front end worth.
with hq disks...
i might have one if the price is good..
-
about 250 i recon
-
i,ll keep it..
-
oh sorry is that sub frame, wishbones and everything. i thought you just meant hq disk on stub axels.
maybe 350. if got steering rack maybe 450.
ben
-
sorry didnt mean to be rude...
was going to sell mine..
-
Hi there all, I had an interesting conversation with a guy today. I was talking to a guy that works for George Stock and Co. in Auckland about ball joints that I had bought from them (in a post I made about front suspension). Turns out that they had given me the wrong size and while we were sorting that out he said that he used to work for a company that did 202 engine conversions on Bedfords that were being built as ambulances over here. The other part of the conversion that they did was to convert them to disc brake front ends. They simply did this by fitting HQ discs. Not just the discs but they fitted the HQ top and bottom arms, hubs, calipers and all! Straight bolt on he said!
Does anyone know of this being done or even done it themselves?
-
I have an Ambulance (factory fitted) disc set up it is not holden, Bedford stud patten, and no way use's holden parts. Holden has been used for years to convert to disc set up but is not bolt on as this person said as far as I know, Maybe my van had the Mk 2 disc setup put on it as it is a 81 they changed half way through this year I think? Bas
-
I had an 84 with drums. I think it was part way through 84 that the mk 2 came out.
I was chatting with a guy who had the job of uprating the ambulances, and he said that the hubs and discs (and stubs?) from a top model Holden (I forget the name now) bolted straight on.
I have fitted mk2 discs on mine and that truly is bolt on... they work well too.
-
we know nothing of bolt on disc brakes here in aus?
-
Hey benny, the discs i have on mine were bolt on, we just removed all the drum gear and bolted on the disc, we didnt have to modify anything.
george.
-
Hey benny, the discs i have on mine were bolt on, we just removed all the drum gear and bolted on the disc, we didnt have to modify anything.
george.
What did you use George?
-
Hey Bas, We used a HQ disc brake conversion kit from a company here in bris.
KIT:
4 Rotors.
2 Calipers.
2 Mounting Brackets
2 Sets Bendix Pads.
Price $900-00
2 Grease Covers.
My mechanic picked up the kit and also got it for trade price, he also picked up high tensile bolts to replace others. I would have to go back to my reciepts and mechanic to get exact pricing and parts, also with his labor i think from memory it was about $1100-00 all up. Also we did have to drill the rotors to a HQ pattern. 2 rotors were for the rear brakes. In the end we still have to get new hoses and banjo fittings when the time comes, so there is still more to spend. We also resleeved the master cylinder, and still need to do the booster. But basically my brakes just bolted straight on, i was shocked at how quick the conversion was, 1 day.
george.
-
Hi, I have a 78 t/top why can't VC VH calipers be used instead of HQ thanks.
-
Hi, I have a 78 t/top why can't VC VH calipers be used instead of HQ thanks.
If you do the (maching) anything can be used
-
I know a guy who put ford/holden discs with audi calipers on a bedford - 4 pot calipers
note the ford and holden discs are the same, just different pcd
-
Hi, I have a 78 t/top why can't VC VH calipers be used instead of HQ thanks.
If you do the (maching) anything can be used
can i use my vice grips?
-
can i use my vice grips?
LOL.....tie them to an anchor ! ;D
-
Hi, I have a 78 t/top why can't VC VH calipers be used instead of HQ thanks.
If you do the (maching) anything can be used
can i use my vice grips?
Jezz Benny your using the smicko tools now, not just wire an gaffa tape ;D
-
Hi everyone..
i want to ring a brake specialist and get him to make me a pair of disc brakes for my bedford...
it currently has the hq modification done to it, but i want the bedford stud pattern.
So..
What do i ask for with details...
a hq disc blank, and then machine the bearings out to what???
i measured the studs at:
7/16" x 3.50" apart x 5 stud
-
Dont think it would work The bedford PCD is too big for the HQ disc You would be better off finding a disc hat that would fit over the standard bedford hub like maby a toyota land cruser or something like that Even the big VR commodore hat wouldnt fit over the bedford hub But there's gotta be a disc hat out there that will like a light truck that will fit over the beddie hub Then you would have to make a new bracket to fit a late model caliper too I wouldnt mind doing something like that But why would you want to keep the bedford wheels there one of a kind If your going to improve a bedford you have to fit later model parts so that spares are easy to get Just my 2bobs worth
-
when we did my rear ford disc brakes, we just got a new rotor /disc and drilled it to the pattern i wanted, and it fits ok.
george
-
yeah bedfordcrazy, thats what i intend doing..
restoreid... are you sure the pattern wont fit??? that will stuff up all my plans
just need to know what blank to use if the existing brakes are hq..
does the inside of the hub need machining to match the bearings of the bedford stub axle?
I gonna rip it off tomorrow and see for myself.. will post pics to confirm here..
cheers guys
-
If it's got HQ hub & disc on it now & you have a standard bedford hub just hold the bedford hub up against the HQ hub & you will see the difference so unless you need new discs youl be waisting your money buying a new HQ hub & YES the outside bearing will have to be machined out to suit bedford outer bearing The one on it now will have been done unless someone has machined the stubaxel down to suit holden WHICH IS ILLEAGLE because they WILL break
-
to confirm i will check tomorrow by taking the wheel off, and visual the stud pattern
i want bedford all round... the rear is standard diff, so just want the front to be the same.
the cheapest option is to drill new holes in the rim.. which will kill the rim if it is even legal.
therefore i was going to cut off old studs and drill in new ones at the correct spot.. this is apparently illegal also.. not convinced it is bad myself
and then therefore
the only way i can see is to buy a couple of new discs, machine them and put bedford stud pattern studs in.
the other option is to convert the rear to holden, but could be a bit of mucking around from what i can gather.. and i dont have a diff laying around.
-
i do have a complete set of F150 front discs and calipers in the boot of the bedford.. i wonder
hehe... they would stop it
-
Is the f150 discs seprate to the hub If so try them over the bedford hub Ya never know you might be able to get a blank set & have them drilled to bedford stud pattern Might be on to something here
-
Why wouldn't you convert the rear to Holden as well? The choice of rims for Bedford pattern is pretty limited. Plus if you have HQ stuff all round, parts are a lot easier to come by. There's a few other threads on here if you do a search.
-
I think I know where your coming from Stangas You want to keep it original looking but have BIG discs You will have to get some standard bedford hubs they are plenty strong enough & find a set of discs off a big 4 wheel drive I think the front discs slip over the hubs You might have to machine the beddie hubs down on the outside diameter to get the discs to fit over Then redrill the disc hats to beddie & fit longer studs Check out my disc conversion in the disc break section will give you a better ideah of how to doo it Cheers Reid
-
zeeman...
it is partly the original thing, but mostly i have everything for the bedford...
all i need is the rims to fit on the front.... i didnt think it would be this difficult.
i was originally intending going for the holden rear but soon found that they are too short and the change over is not as simple as we think.
From what i can see, the F150 diff is a better fit, as it is wider than the sailsbury or the borg warner diffs. (which i have access to heaps of all 3 diffs)
my thought process was that to change a simple disc at the front and would be about $400.. not realising the stud pattern physically wont fit on the blank. :(
LOL... might take the F150 body off and lower the bedford onto it... LOL... 4wd too. (JOKE!)
-
Hey Stangas,
I have HQ disks on the front of my van with stock CF hubs and stud pattern. This is how mine's done.
You'll notice on the rear of the CF hub there is a spigot about 20mm or so from the outer edge. Machine the guts out of the HQ disk (the hub part where the beerings are) so that it fits neatly onto this spigot. You the machine either two or three holes between each stud on the CF hub to take 1/4" high tensile cap screws or c'sunk screws (your choice) so you end up with either 10 or 15 screw holes equi spaced on a PCD a bit bigger than the spigot diameter. This PCD is determined by the amount of steel left on the HQ disk. From memory there's nearly 10mm left to put the 1/4" screws into. Fit the HQ disk onto the CF hub spigot and spot the 1/4" screws through onto the disk. There's enough meat (10mm ish) on the disk to tap into so drill the spoted holes in the disk and tap to 1/4", then bolt the disk to the hub. This operation is better done using a CNC mill to ensure the 1/4" hole pitch is concentric and equi spaced so the disk will fit anywhere around the hub and not just in one position.
You now have an HQ disk fitted to the std CF hub using std CF bearings etc. You're also now stuck with CF wheel studs which as mentioned will severly limit the wheel options available. It works a treat if you do it right. You will also need to fit a plate on the wheel side of the hub to fill in the section where the drum flange was, about 5 mm thick I think. I have drawings of mine but not sure if I have photos or not. Will check.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Garry.
-
Garry, would be intrested if you have any drawings laying around, have access to all the gear for such a job, but not to good on the know how............ But once I know , have no problems doing it............
-
When we did the front, HQs, i just bought 4x HQ discs and the rear just got drilled to match the front. I already had the HQ pattern all round so the decision was easy. Good luck. I may be wrong, but at the time, the advice i got was that the HQ pattern would cater for a lot of the new 5 stud wheels. The idea was to be able to throw on some of the new wheels if the urge was there.
george.
-
awesome responses guys... thank you very much
so you machine the holden hub completely out and then bolt it to the existing bedford hub?
i would love to see the drawing if you can dig it up...
i am going to spend some money on this van as it is my next project, so i want to do it properly and my machinist i am talking to in about 20mins has all the good gear to get the job done.
i already have the bedford rims right now, that look real cool, the missus likes em (biggest battle won), so i wont need to find any others now. (unless we smash one on a kerb or something, but i have only done that when being real stupid)
Right now i am investigating drilling the bedford rims to fit the holden stud pattern... but the volume of meat on the rim is the decider... and still doesnt solve my problem
-
anyone have some bedford hubs they want to give me?
LMFAO!!
-
Here is the information I have.. Just did a bit of research, this is a interesting way to go....... This is the process from the van BELOW he used.
First step was to sort out some bigger wheels to fit bigger brakes, now you simply can NOT buy bigger wheels for CF Bedfords any more, the stud pattern is essentially a pain in the ass & extremely hard to deal with.
Studs removed, hubs drilled to six stud on the same PCD, then adaptors used to convert to the typical Jap 4wd/commercial stud pattern.
Now that we had some room for bigger brakes (stock wheels were 14") we could go on the hunt for something that would work.
After a HUGE amount of time was wasted on people that simply didn't respond to emails or return ph calls etc (because it just got too hard for them) we purchased a set of brake rotors.
They are the 13" two piece units, this allowed me to design custom hats to suit the Bedford hubs & have these & the caliper mounts machined just around the corner.
Z32 300ZX TT front brake calipers were overhauled & painted then the whole lot was slapped on:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:49:55 AM by Bas / NZ »
-
Baz - do they state what the discs were off - they do mention the caipers
Warrenl
-
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
i dont know what to do...
everyone says to stick to holden and convert the rear... then we can get any sized rim to fit..
i am thinking i should go that path...
the machinist says he can make adaptors real easy, but the back wheels will stick out a little further (about an inch) which is not too big a problem with the scooby flare kit thats going on. albeit illegal... definately the cheapest option...
Someone has mentioned holden diff in its entirety... but that looks harder than it sounds.
he can also make the front end as Sundownernz recommended... need to source some original bedford hubs and then about $300 of machining... but then have the rim problem of bedfords being rare.
the machinist can also make the bedford rims fit the holden stud pattern, but is quite laboursome and still have the different stud patterns problem
-
Mate i know your delema, but here's the easiest way and the cheapest.
1. We left the complete diff in place, including axels.
2. We went to the wreckers and bought a set of EA Falcon rear disc brakes for $60 including backing plate.
3. We redrilled 2 new holes in the backing plate to line up with the standard studs.
4. Dragged out the plasma cutter OOOHHH YEEEEAH cut the center out of 2 of the drum brake covers / cleaned up / painted.
5. Bolted everything up.
6. DONE & DUSTED.
All up the cost was about $60 for the brakes, the drum covers were free, 4hrs with my mechanic @ $60 per hr. Having said all that, once we had everything fitting nice i went out and bought a nice set of shiny new brakes, which will go on when we put the van back together. In my opinion that was the cheapest disc brake conversion i have seen.
If you are not in a wheelchair like me you should have no trouble if you go this path.
Hope this helps.
george
-
Front brakes (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2954.0)
quote this and you will see how to insert hyperlinks - Warren
-
Diff (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2955.0)
-
Maby that didnt work Im not good at computers Help please
-
http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2954.0 (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2954.0)
http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2955.0 (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=2955.0)
Fixed
-
Thanks for that Kimbo Im a real DH when it comes to thoes tricks
-
Mate i know your delema, but here's the easiest way and the cheapest.
1. We left the complete diff in place, including axels.
2. We went to the wreckers and bought a set of EA Falcon rear disc brakes for $60 including backing plate.
3. We redrilled 2 new holes in the backing plate to line up with the standard studs.
4. Dragged out the plasma cutter OOOHHH YEEEEAH cut the center out of 2 of the drum brake covers / cleaned up / painted.
5. Bolted everything up.
6. DONE & DUSTED.
All up the cost was about $60 for the brakes, the drum covers were free, 4hrs with my mechanic @ $60 per hr. Having said all that, once we had everything fitting nice i went out and bought a nice set of shiny new brakes, which will go on when we put the van back together. In my opinion that was the cheapest disc brake conversion i have seen.
If you are not in a wheelchair like me you should have no trouble if you go this path.
Hope this helps.
george
George
I think I've asked this before - but I will ask again, did you end up with ford stud patterns on the rear - if so the diff must have been out of a big ford and not a Bed Ford :)
Warren
-
Yep you did ask b4, thats cool warren. To my knowledge someone has redrilled the hub, you can see where they welded up the holes, when they did that, they ended up with a HQ pattern, when we went to disc brakes, we bought a blank rotor/disc and drilled it out to HQ to match the front. As for the front, we just bought a HQ disc brake kit that bolted up. As for what the original diff and stud pattern was, i still dont know unfortunately, all i know is that when i bought the van it was fitted with 14x7 HQ jellybeans. Now that i have gone to disc brakes all round, i now have to go to a 15" wheel to fit over the callipers. The fronts discs cost me about $1,200 approx and the back cost me $60. Crazy, i could of sworn the back was going to be a nightmare and cost the world, but no the front was the headache and the costly part, you just never know.
george.
-
Thanks George that clears it up for me.
yep it's always the stuff you think will be a breeze that bites you :)
Warren
-
To get this thread back on track, exbedford is 100% correct with his part numbers.
I have been doing alot of research into bearings of late, and will be writing up a definitive thread on such details, however as was stated:
The standard bedford bearing for the smaller stub axle is:
M12649/10
Bore: 21.430/0.8437
O.D: 50.005/1.9687
Width: 17.526/0.6900
The Ford bearing is:
LM12749/10
Bore: 21.987/0.8656
O.D: 45.237/1.7810
Width: 15.494/0.6100
The Pontiac? bearing I can only find details of in the SKF catalog:
SKF LM12748/10
Bore: 21.430/0.8437
O.D: 45.237/1.7810
Width: 15.494/0.6100
The ford bearing is usable, however is not a correct fit, as it it quite considerably larger than it should be.
Good work to exbedford for pointing this out.