BUGA Community
Technical => Miscellaneous Technical => Topic started by: Bedfordcrazy on April 13, 2010, 11:15:30 AM
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hey guys, I am now very confused. I posted this topic a few weeks ago, and some advice was to retemper my old coils, i thought this was a good idea, as i could get a spare set, well i spoke to a few people at king springs, and their advice was not to as after 35yrs they may not hold up. They recomended i buy a set of springs that they sell which are a replacement for the beddy coils.
Code : KB FS-01 $185 - 190 pair.
Has anyone used these springs or have any knowledge of them.
George.
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Depends how much use they have had and what sort of condition they are in. If you need to adjust the height of your van because you've been moving engines around then buying new springs off the shelf isn't going to help and most spring outfits should be able to test the quality of the spring anyway to ensure that they are safe.
I know mine are in pretty good nick as the van has had very minimal use over the past 15 or so years and has been garaged the whole time so mine will definitely just be reset and re-tempered to get the ride height sorted out.
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hey rogue, yep my van has been idle since 01 when i ended up in a chair, prior it use to be a daily driver for a couple of years, b4 i got it who knows how hard it worked. Also because i am redoing all the bushes and bits, i'd rather just do something with the springs and have everything underbody new, checked and safe. My van probably wont do the ks that it used to, but i do only want to do this once.
george.
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Try pedders suspension, they made custom coils and reset rear leafs for us and shocks to suit the vans needs because it's no longer a 6 it's a v8 in there plus we wanted it lower so they did the lot and now we go over a bump it bounces once not the standard Bedford trait of continuing bouncing 50 to 100 meters after. It's pricey but can't complain about the ride at all. What bushes are u using?
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i think youll find that bounce is not from the spring but from bad shockers..
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watever it was it's gone now
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how can they not hold up if they have been retempered ? isn't that the idea for retempering them ?
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i've got king springs, and i personally think they're great. I can't compare them to standard as i never drove the van with the standard springs, but when my cousin put the king springs in he was raving about the massive improvement.
I don't know the part number, but i doubt they have 2 different sets..
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I once rebuilt the front suspension on a little mazda 808 with king springs and KYB shocks. Best spring and shockie set-up that i have driven. The coil springs lowered it by 2 inches at the front and gave it a good stance. ;D
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i think youll find that bounce is not from the spring but from bad shockers..
yep mi agree with ben on that, good shocks should deaden the continuous bounce, if u hit a bump it should bounce 1,s then even out.
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Nothing wrong with retempered springs, and if the people who are doing them know what their been doing, they can get it to the exact hight. give them a coat of paint and tell me what the differance is. just don't cut them or heat them with the oxy to lower them. good shockers are the best birthday present a van can get ::)
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ok, rossie, do you know what the cost is to retemper ? After speaking to king springs they were steering me towards new springs, and i have to say, for $185 a set can't go wrong when it comes to price. I spoke to pedders, and their advice was ring kings, and they gave me all the part codes and then passed me onto their distributor, Fulcrum, 2 mins up the rd from me. I guess all i can do is take one of my spare springs to fulcrum, compare it to the one they suggest and see what happens. I hope the shocks are going to be an easier decision. lol >:(
George.
I suppose we look at cost between the 2 options. Then look at end result. mmmmm
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well i have made a decision on my coils, all the advice i have had now is this, if my springs are not rusty or damaged then clean and paint them, and put them back in, and they could last another decade. But if they are damaged or the like then i should run with the king spring replacement. So there you have it, worse case $185, which is still good, best case few bucks for paint.
On the issue of my bushes, the poly wins hands down as far as the experts are concerned, long lasting, so there we have it. Thanks for all the advice guys.
George.
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it was about a hundred bucks apair George, best thing to do would be to ask your local cos the prise might differ. If you dont want to change the hight l think you have it worked out
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i have like 10 sets of different springs if anyone ever needs standard or non standard ones i got all sorts of colors:)
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got any lowered springs, Ben?
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i can take some photos but you never really know till they go in the van.
do you call sagged springs lowered? also do you call cut down springs lowered? cause im sure id have some lowered springs then
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well I plan on cutting mine so, some pre cut springs would be ok by me.
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If I can get some springs that are already cut, that would be good then I would still have my original springs if things don't work out to well
:D
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ok ill take some photos tommorow of a few different sets i have.
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Just be aware that aside from the safety issue around cut springs you are going to screw the camber on the front of your van as well as the toe which means you are going to go through tyres like nobody's business. The toe can probably be fixed with a wheel alignment but to fix the camber issue you are going to have to spend serious dollars and make a number of modifications.
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Yeah I understand the issues with the camber. If it wears tyres really quickly, I’m going to have a go at moving the lower wishbone.
The lower wish bone is only held on by 4 small bolts either side. (Remove, weld up holes, drill new holes, reinforce, bolt back up) should almost be easy.
Just have to do some good maths, to calculate the right place to drill.
From what I understand about springs, cutting them is not really a safety issue, as long as they have not been heated.
(I.e. giving springs a blast with the oxy until they sag to the desired height.) Big no no.
I read a detailed engineering article somewhere; it was saying the ride characteristics of the spring should almost be exactly the same,
As the coils per inch and diameter of the spring have not changed.
once I get it done, I'll let everyone know how it goes,
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if you move the wishbones you'll be putting more strain on the tierod ends so really need to shorten your steering rack too
the tie rods will thread in further but the more you do the less adjustment you'll have ....
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From what I understand about springs, cutting them is not really a safety issue, as long as they have not been heated.
(I.e. giving springs a blast with the oxy until they sag to the desired height.) Big no no.
Bear in mind that the top and bottom of the springs form a flat plain that allows the spring to sit flat in its seats. When you cut them you are going to lose that flat seating at the top or bottom which will mean that the spring doesn't sit properly and will no longer be properly captive. That's your safety issue.
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I read a detailed engineering article somewhere; it was saying the ride characteristics of the spring should almost be exactly the same,
As the coils per inch and diameter of the spring have not changed.
Not quite. The shorter spring will effectively be stiffer overall = Harder ride.
Because for a given load, each coil in a Bedford compresses by the same amount,
So less coils = less total compression.
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The shorter coil being stiffer is not entirely true as the load remains the same on the spring the weight is dispersed over the coils (think of 10 blokes lifting a car as opposed to 8 blokes they will still lift it but they have to work harder) and you will suffer coil bind much sooner due to the shorter travel hope that clears it up for you Cheers Neil
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is coil bind when the coils all touch each other/ bottom out?
Quote from: Numnutz on Today at 07:18:03 AM
From what I understand about springs, cutting them is not really a safety issue, as long as they have not been heated.
(I.e. giving springs a blast with the oxy until they sag to the desired height.) Big no no.
Bear in mind that the top and bottom of the springs form a flat plain that allows the spring to sit flat in its seats. When you cut them you are going to lose that flat seating at the top or bottom which will mean that the spring doesn't sit properly and will no longer be properly captive. That's your safety issue.
only the top forms a flat plain. the bottom is not flat. but is still slightly different to the centre of the spring so rouge has a point. althou i know of people that every van they have ever owned they have cut srings to lower front just a little for the last 20 years..
here is pics to show of a standard spring.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSC02032.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSC02033.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSC02034.jpg)
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Merlin, if the spring was stretched out into a bar, it would display the same *springyness* as a coil.
And if the bar spring was one meter long and a weight hung off the end, it would drop X amount.
But if the weight was moved to 500mm it would only drop half of X.
(The graph of a spring , load vs movement is a straight line until the elastic limit is reached.)
Therefore the spring would be stiffer.
I lowered a Cortina in my youth by chopping the coils and the ride was noticeably harder.
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only the top forms a flat plain. the bottom is not flat.
Hmmm, from memory both my ends were flat although admittedly my memory is pretty crap. Mine are coming out again shortly to be reset and retempered to bring my ride height down to normal before we fit the power steering rack so I'll take a look then.
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The bottoms on mine are as Ben says. This can be seen by looking underneath the bottom wishbone.
You can see the helical spring seat.
Rouge, you may have non standard springs!
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i was thinking maybe they changed design for the cf2? but yours is a cf2 isnt it jeff?
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Hey Ben notice you still got them quality safty boots on haha I cut a half a coil off mine & I think it came down about 30mm like an idiot I didnt measure it before I pulled the frontend apart but it has an eaven gap around the tyre now & looks heaps better now to do the rear Cheers Reid
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actually these saftey boots are not so safe anymore.. there getting pretty thin.. might be time for some more saftey boots:)
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Jeff I dont understand your analogy ??!! how can you compare the lateral load of a straight length of coil steel to the compression load of a wound coil its two diferent forces IE: leverage verses compression .so are you saying if i had a coil with only two coils as oposed to ten coils it would be virtually rigid?? I did my aprenticeship in the brake/suspension game and thats not the way i was taught Cheers Neil
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The bottoms on mine are as Ben says. This can be seen by looking underneath the bottom wishbone.
You can see the helical spring seat.
Rouge, you may have non standard springs!
Nope, never changed the springs. I would say I'm probably wrong. ;)
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Hey Ben get a bright coloured pair this time there easier to find when you walk out of them By the way Jeff is right the shorter the spring the stiffer it is Ive cut plenty of coil springs & they made the cars ride firmer Thats why in the old days to get the race sedans to handle better they would cut a coile or 2 off not only made them lower but also stiffer My 2bobs worth Cheers Reid
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Jeff I dont understand your analogy ??!! how can you compare the lateral load of a straight length of coil steel to the compression load of a wound coil its two diferent forces IE: leverage verses compression .so are you saying if i had a coil with only two coils as oposed to ten coils it would be virtually rigid?? I did my aprenticeship in the brake/suspension game and thats not the way i was taught Cheers Neil
Hi Neil, Years ago I did a basic engineering course which contained a module on springs.
If I remember rightly, we were told that the shape of the spring does not alter its characteristics, in that it's movement per given load will be the same whether it is straight or coiled.
Therefore I question whether the two forces of leverage and compression are really different, as the load on a coil (compression) will produce more movement the further away (along the spring) it is from the fixed point.
What I am saying is that chopping a coil is the same as shortening a straight spring....making it firmer.
The number of coils, or their pitch, has negligible effect, (until binding occurs) as it is the length that is all important, but the thickness of the spring steel will of course also have a major effect.
Regards, Jeff.
edit.. I found this site that explains cutting springs quite well..
It seems we are both sort of right, and George, below. ;D
http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/cutting-springs (http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/cutting-springs)
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Hey guys, would it not be cheaper and safer to buy new ones ? safer in that if you buy what you want, it is approved & covered by a warranty, cheaper $185 in that if it fails your insurance will hold up, and cheaper than a cut one failing and destroying your van.
The $185 is the quote i got from king springs for a replacement spring for a cfs, that is an exact size, and height swap. They also told me i can get a lowered spring, i did not want to lower mine so i dont have any info on those. Hope this helps, or not. lol ;) ;D
george
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Hey guys, would it not be cheaper and safer to buy new ones ? safer in that if you buy what you want, it is approved & covered by a warranty, cheaper $185 in that if it fails your insurance will hold up, and cheaper than a cut one failing and destroying your van.
The $185 is the quote i got from king springs for a replacement spring for a cfs, that is an exact size, and height swap. They also told me i can get a lowered spring, i did not want to lower mine so i dont have any info on those. Hope this helps, or not. lol ;) ;D
george
x2 cuttting spring went out years ago now days its not worth it
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was it a fad grandad?
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i was thinking maybe they changed design for the cf2? but yours is a cf2 isnt it jeff?
No. It's a CF1 facelift which looks the same and is commonly mistaken for a CF2.
CF2 (late'84 onwards) has different engine options, disc brakes, and other minor changes.
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LOL I'm alomost sorry I ever mentioned cutting springs, but with out stirring the debate any more
I still I have to do something to bring my van down there is at least 5" front and 7" rear between the tires and the wheel arch.
I've got more ground clearance than most 4X4s.
:D
I'm unaware of any off the shelf lowered springs, King springs list only standard springs.
Has any one found a part number for lowered springs for a CF?
::)
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i dont think youll find them. because of the camber thing.. but i have some springs that came out of a cf that lowered it heaps but its way to close to the bump stop and it bottoms out all the time, its not adviseable.
No. It's a CF1 facelift which looks the same and is commonly mistaken for a CF2.
CF2 (late'84 onwards) has different engine options, disc brakes, and other minor changes.
cf2 sounds better..
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LOL I'm alomost sorry I ever mentioned cutting springs, but with out stirring the debate any more
I still I have to do something to bring my van down there is at least 5" front and 7" rear between the tires and the wheel arch.
I've got more ground clearance than most 4X4s.
Hey, stirring the debate is a good thing.
There is no ill feeling at all, and this is how we learn. :)
My CF seems to be at normal height, and the lower wishbones and beam form a straight line all the way across the van, and parallel with the drive.
If your wishbones slope down towards the wheels, you may have longer springs fitted.
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Have a look here...
http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=1725.0 (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=1725.0)
This is a thread I started regarding the standard ride height of the CF facelift but some of the guys with the earlier model replied anyway. Compare some of the measurements here and that should give you some indication of whether your van is riding at the normal height.
Also have a look at your front tyre wear. If it is wearing more on the outside of the tread then it probably is sitting too high.
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I suppose if all else fails, and you dont like that 4x4 look in the wheel arches, just do some sheetmetal work, and lower your guards, and put some skirts down the side, and b4 you know it you have a lowered van, and only you will know the truth. ;)
george.
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i know that the cf1 cab units had 2 diffrent front springs 1 was shorter & thicker the other longer & thinner.
i have both & put the wrong ones in me camper.
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Hey buddy could you measure the thickness of both sets & post them here for all to see Coil springs that is Cheers Reid
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I run lowered king springs and can't recomend them highly enough.....to drop the front 4" and the rear 7" (re-tensioned) for "high speed"....... lol ..... cost me $450 in '96 .... wilkinson suspensions Bayswater, they also do sway bars , which I'll get done soon as i can.
they also did wheel alignment etc.... "did the job properly!"
why would you even consider cutting the springs?????
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thats what i am tryin to say cut springs dont have the ductile elasticity that the purpose made "lowered" springs (hence the reason they are illeagal) so they are not "stiffer" in fact prolonged use of chopped springs will cause them to collapse eventually .I have been in the trade for over 30 years and have seen it time and again .As Danno said for the cost of correctly rated coils why would ya wanna???? Cheers Neil
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4 inches & 7inches musta been high in the first place if I done that the axels would be sitting hard on the subframe rails
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Hey Dano, Have you got part numbers for the springs that you have in your van?
have you changed the rear springs too?
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LOL I'm alomost sorry I ever mentioned cutting springs, but with out stirring the debate any more
I still I have to do something to bring my van down there is at least 5" front and 7" rear between the tires and the wheel arch.
I've got more ground clearance than most 4X4s.
:D
I'm unaware of any off the shelf lowered springs, King springs list only standard springs.
Has any one found a part number for lowered springs for a CF?
::)
hq lowered 2" for a v8 fit.....