BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: Bedfordcrazy on March 23, 2010, 09:43:15 AM
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Hey Guys, well I do know where to go for advice, so here goes. I recieved my V6 conversion kit from moree a couple of weeks ago, and what surprised me was the lack of information and tech drawings. The one thing that should of been included and was not, is a template that you can lay on the floor so you know how much floor you need to cut. They have a template for the engine cover, which is so complicated, even my mechanic was some what confused, the lack of detailed info was disappointing, considering the price of the kit. So what I need is to find out if someone here has done the v6 conversion, do you have any pics from the inside with the floor cut out, or marked out b4 the cover was made and installed. I hoped that by buying this kit you could save days of guessing and work, after speaking to pat his answer was, you need to make up a complete cover, and sit it on the floor, trace it, and cut, my point here is, if i want a different design of cover,then i have to spend days and money to have a cover made, just to shelve it for 2 minutes it takes to trace it. Why is it moree could not trace their cover and include it in the kit, just lazy i guess. When I finally work out the cut line I will do a ply template and keep it so that i have it for anyone else that needs it down the track. So hopefully you guys can help, and save me a lot of lost time. Thanks.
George.
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Mine is a mid-mount which doesn't really help you and measuring the actual hole is a bit difficult now I've bunged the engine in but I can measure the inside of the base of the engine cover frame I'm currently building and that might give you a rough idea of the width you need.
Let me know and if I get a bit of time tonight I'll pop out and have a measure.
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thanks rogue, any help is appreciated. To me a 1:1 scale paper template would of cost nothing to put in the kit, i dont get these companies. oh well.
George. thanks mate.
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Geez doesn't that piss you off george....There is a fellow that i know who has done a v6 conversion to his truck . If you want i can see if i can see him and get some pics for you. Let me know George..... ;D ;D
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george whats included in the conversion kit?
i could trace one of my v8 engine covers if you want? or just take measurements. i asume the v6 wont be a whole lot different..
ben
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your not wrong there john, i mean if your going to do a job, then do it right, mmmm. If you can get some pics would be good, not much is coming out of moree.
hey ben, the kit is $1,500 with the postage to bris, kit included a : sump-dipstick tube, sensor- oil pickup-L-R engine mounts-wiring loomcross member-2 engine mount posts and the very sketchy instructions with photos that were misleading, an a4 template for the engine cover, but even my mechanic had trouble trying to read it, and he is switched on, I am only guessing that its an engine cover template, i suspect that it may also be for the shifter mount, they have got nothing written that says what you are looking at. You judge for yourself, i will post it here. I can tell you that if you are in my position, that i am not a mechanic or in the trade, the lay guy would have a lot of trouble working out where to start. My mechanic looked at one photo and it looked like the radiator was mounted right up near the engine cover opening, when i rang pat he said, no radiator is in the normal position behind the grill, pic shows different.
George.
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Righty, been out to the garage and this is what I got. The width of the hole in the floor is 665mm. This is centred. I took some pics so you can see how close the engine sits to the side of the hole in the floor.
First off here is the engine and a rough idea of how much space it is taking up.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Frame.jpg)
This next one shows how much gap there is on the left hand side...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Left.jpg)
And the right...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Right.jpg)
I also took one with my metre rule extended up to the foot of the steering column so you can see how much you would roughly be cutting out of the front in relation to the column...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Column.jpg)
Hope that gives you a better idea of what you might be looking at.
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thanks rogue, i will send these pics to my mechanic. If moree had of supplied nice clean pics like these, maybe we would not be scratching our nuts. lol What is your interpretation of the template i posted above, that what they send you in the kit.
George.
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It's got me a bit buggered. Would have helped if he'd included a photo of the finished article fitted in place.
How about blowing it up on a photocopier to an A3 sheet and then cut it out and fold it up sticking it together with some cellotape. That'll give you a better idea of what the finished product would look like. You could also get a really large sheet of cardboard and make it up that way. As long as it's stiff enough you could then put that in place in the van and use that to work out how large the hole should be.
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Hey Rogue...Where does your air intake white pipe go to? :-\
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It's going back to the battery box. I'm thinking of creating an airbox in the rear half of the battery compartment and will probably mount a pod filter on the end of the pipe. It's about the only place I can go underneath the van to keep it away from the heat of the exhaust pipe and try and prevent the intake sucking up water on rainy days as well. I'll still have to run some heat shielding between the intake pipe and the exhaust to try and keep the intake as cool as possible.
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George
Regarding the picture you attached, I think it is the drawing for the engin cover, top and sides.
This picture should help you visualise it.
If you imagine it folded along the lines in the drawing you can see where there is allowances for the changing height of the floor.
The bottom bit (the smiley shaped bit) is the base and the squarer top bit is the cover.
As said before make it out of cardboard to get an understanding.
Warren
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does not look like the much room for any air movement she will get hot under there
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Having carried out a v6 conversion, it is quite involved. I doubt if Pat can cover everything off and make the conversion kit profitable to sell (not making any excuses for Pat though, I used his sump only in mine). He wouldn't include the custom radiator mounts, custom accelerator cable, new fuel lines, adaption of transmission shifter, custom drive shaft, conversion of fuel filler to unleaded (must for rego) speedo adapter (I converted speedo to commodore) custom exhaust system, disk brake conversion (must for rego in the ACT) and many other little challenges you face when doing a conversion. But I will say that this has been one of the most reliable user friendly conversions I have done. The dog house is tight but the commodore radiator and matching fan work too well, definitely no over heating at any time :)
I fabricated my own engine cover as mentioned before by making a pattern out of cardboard first.
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Hi Noid, I'm not a mechanic, i have a mechanic doing my conversion, so forgive my ignorance here. In some of the pics from pat it shows the radiator being kicked back towards the firewall, almost lobbing it in the middle of the engine bay, is there an operational reason for this, if not why can i not move the radiator forward to the grill, normal position, allowing room for air-con, and keeping bay open for bottles and other things.
I am planning on using the complete fuel filler and remote door from my donor car, just graft the whole lot into my beddy body.
Someone in here a few days ago said they used a 100 series landcruiser radiator for reliable cooling, is there a preference for my donor VP or cruiser radiator ?
I have no doubt my mechanic will sort it all out, but while he is doing so, i am paying, so the more time we can spend doing an not thinking the better for my wallet. I have done a 4 wheel disc brake conversion, so i should stop no problem.
George.
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You can put your radiator wherever you like so long as it is going to get adequate airflow. It might have been situated where it was because that is where the original hoses and transmission lines reached to and the guy who installed it couldn't be bothered sorting out longer hoses and lines.
I would say stick with the VP radiator if you already have it and then see how it cools. It must do the job OK otherwise it wouldn't have been fitted to the engine in the first place. Why shell out for something else if you don't need to.
I'm using the original VN radiator for my install. I would say the previous owner had replaced it quite recently as it is in very good nick.
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the Vp radiator shoudl be fine, at that stage of the game it should be a cross flow, so provided it isn't blocked it shoudl be good. It might be wortyh takign to a radiator specialist and have it checked, or cleaned out for best results.
As was said you can put the radiator anywhere you want, you just have to find some rubber hoses to make the distance/bends which isn't hard.
Also another good suggestion was making the engine cover out of cardboard, its easy to do, easy to fix if it doesn't work out, and cheap. It'll give you a good idea of sizing, but you want to cut on the inside of the line when its on the floor of the van, and then once you've cut the floor, you want to take measurements of the floor and make your new engine cover up to those dimensions, just incase things changed between initial plan and end result.
One thing i think will be most important, and i'm not sure if you have the information anyway, is getting the engine location right. The mounts will want to be in a pretty specific position without modification, so you'll need to make sure you know where the hole in the floor needs to be to get this positioning right.
Good luck
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thanks guys, our biggest decision is cuting the floor lol ;D there is a rib just behind the original hole in floor do we cut through that ? the pics we have appear that the hole for the engine is almost inline with the front of the seat boxes, as rogue said some time ago, it is easier to cut more floor out, just harder to stick it back. lol ;D One reason guys, when I do this i will make a floor template from tin, and the next guy here that needs to know, i can just send a cardboard copy to them, save them having my headaches lol the joys of custom vanning ;D :o
George.
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I wouldn't have thought it went back that far. The V6 is shorter than the straight 6 you're replacing it with unless the whole shooting match is supposed to sit back further.
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hi rogue, according to moree, new mounts sit at back of the front cross member.
George.
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Righto then. You'd probably be doing yourself a favour if you raise the trans shifter though. Might just have to get a bit funky with the linkage although if you alter the trans end lever so it activates from a slightly different angle and lengthen the linkage shaft between the shifter and the lever you might not have to do much at all.
Just a thought.
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hey rogue, if i have my way the shifter will be closer to the level of the seat. I drove it for years with the stubby shifter and it is a pain, so yep its getting lifted.
George. ;D
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Yeah I didn't use Pats kit, I fabricated my own mounts. I adapted the drivers side mount at the same location and height and totally redesigned and welded the passenger side one. This positioned the engine higher and further forward than where Pats sits. Weight distribution is fine because with the V6 there is more weight behind the original position. (This lightened up the steering) I think one reason why Pat positioned the engine back further (about 50 mm further back than mine) and lower is it won't interfere with the fire wall so you would only need to cut the floor. With the position of my engine I had to alter the fire wall as well as cut the floor. I kept the radiator in the original position close to the grill with the original vn commodore fan. There is no problem with heating or cooling. I had to shorten the original hoses by about 50 mm and cut the same amount off the fan shroud. So I would say the location is as previously mentioned more to do with the length of the hoses Pat is recommending. You still have to fabricate new radiator mounts either way so probably no saving other than looks better.
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Hi Rouge....I have been looking at your V6 pics and was wondering if you have any pics of the sump and its positioning on the cross-member? Did you have to alter the sump at all? cheers...johnno ;D
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Ahhh Johnno, don't forget, mine is a midmount. It goes nowhere near the CF crossmember. I used the original holden crossmember or K-frame I think they call it and had mounts fabricated that bolt up to the CF gearbox mounts. That's how far back my engine sits.
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Gee ...I wouldnt mind a pic if you have one Rouge? ;D
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I would if I could buddy. I can't get far enough away from the engine and still take a picture that means something. Just not enough room in the garage. I have tried. As soon as I have the van in a position where I can take a reasonable photo I'll get one up here for you.
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Your a good man Rogue...Thanks ;D
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Righto Johnno. At great risk to life and limb I took the front wheel off this morning and managed to get a few reasonable shots for you.
As requested...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Engine/DSC00189a.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Engine/DSC00197a.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Engine/DSC00192a.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Rogue1234/Engine/DSC00195a.jpg)
That should give you a good idea of how the engine was mounted. Using the original K-frame saved a lot of work fabricating a new crossmember especially as the engine mountings are at different heights so trying to keep the engine level would have been a right pain in the butt.
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Hey rougue, is that PVC water pipe in the first photo? and if so whats it for?
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What a clever buga you are Rogue ;D Thanks for getting those pics so quickly. Good job :D
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Hey rougue, is that PVC water pipe in the first photo? and if so whats it for?
The PVC waterpipe is my mock-up for the air intake. As discussed with Matte in an earlier thread it probably won't like the heat from the exhaust too much as they both run through there but it is a good cheap way of working out what I'm going to have to do before putting in the work to build the main attraction.
What a clever buga you are Rogue ;D Thanks for getting those pics so quickly. Good job :D
Thanks John! :D
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top work rogue, i take it your going to mount the radiator between motor and front crossmember, sort of lends itself to a nice custom pan from the front of the motor and blending into the back of the front crossmember, dont no if it would upset airflow tho? thinking of something like your setup for my swb with sbc but not as far back as your setup but anyway awsome work mate cheers stevo ;D
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Hey Rogue, nice and tidy, a lot of work has gone into it, are the engine mounting brackets a custom made item, they look cool.
George.
Can't wait to see your van completely finished, and decked out.
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top work rogue, i take it your going to mount the radiator between motor and front crossmember, sort of lends itself to a nice custom pan from the front of the motor and blending into the back of the front crossmember, dont no if it would upset airflow tho? thinking of something like your setup for my swb with sbc but not as far back as your setup but anyway awsome work mate cheers stevo ;D
Thanks Steve. The radiator is up the front in more or less the standard location taking into account I have a completely different front. Sitting the radiator below the floor pan in front of the engine would mount it far too low and it would be the first thing taken out if I drove over something in the middle of the road. Behind the radiator I'm mounting an additional trans cooler with an an air scoop to aid airflow through the cooler fins. The bracket that holds the cooler will also have suspension arms to support the extra long radiator hoses, trans hoses and power steering hoses.
Hey Rogue, nice and tidy, a lot of work has gone into it, are the engine mounting brackets a custom made item, they look cool.
George.
Can't wait to see your van completely finished, and decked out.
Thanks. They are certainly not an off-the-shelf item.
I'm kinda looking forward to it too! ;D
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Hey, My Beddie is already converted to VP Commodore V6 and for sale on ebay!! Could be another option ___ without the headf---k Cheers Brian O
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I like the way you've used the sub frame
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Hey Rogue....Does the whole assembly sit the same level as the Beddie crossmember or a little higher? :D
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It's pretty much at the same level as the front crossmember. Didn't want to go any lower as I'd rather anything that is likely to hit the sump will hit the front crossmember first as it is a rather solid piece of metal and I couldn't go much higher as otherwise by the time the seats were mounted I'd have to open the sunroof to have somewhere to stick my stupid head.
Now the seats are in I think it turned out rather well. Seats are still a little high but nothing that can't be lived with although it makes a serious difference having an adjustable steering column.
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hey sandb . . . has yours got its customery ten by 10 classification sticker on it? ;D ;)
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Sorry Skippy, No 10 by 10 on my van!!!! But; there is a faint glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel!!!! If the van doesn't sell on ebay for what I want; at the end of it's time. She's staying right here; Let the "rebuild/conversion begin!!! Didn't "Really" want t sell it anyway!!!!
May I say, ""Welcome back you pair of Beddophials!!!" Cheers Brian & Carole
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LOL knew u didnt really want to brian ;) so. . . . yor beddy must be . . . UNLEADED!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well done there brian, hang in there buddy!
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restarting an old topic but one which is of frequent consversation, the holden V6 motor.
the question I pose today is, which V6 and auto are you using and why.
* the VN series 1 V6 with a 4L60 auto
* the VN s2 and VP V6 with 4L60 auto
* the VR V6 with the 4L60e auto
* or the ecotec V6 (VS and onward) with a 4L60e auto
another quick little question for the v6 knowledgable, does the ecotec motor share the same block as the earlier
v6 motors, the reason I ask this question is I own a modified CRS sump and engine mounts to mount a pre ecotec v6
into a torana (similar to a bedford I hope) and I aren't sure if the steel sump of the early V6 can replace the alloy
sump of the ecotec motors..
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I'm using the series 1 VN as thats what donor car I found first.
I do believe the blocks changed
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I've got the VN but any of the early V6's would have done. The VN is particularly good as it had the most torque of the early V6's. I also wanted to keep the conversion as simple as possible. There were a couple of other features that owners of VN's absolutely hated but suited me perfectly due to my mid mounting it. Later models had a computer controlled transmission which is just a whole lot more hassle.
I'm pretty sure that there is not a lot compatible between the early V6 Buick and the later model Ecotecs. A good place to get that sort of information is the Justcommodores forum.
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I have the VP series 2 V6, mated with the T700, the model b4 going all electronic. In the words of my mechanic, so much easier to work on then the next one up.
george.
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Gone VN s1 with VP T700 auto, only draw back seems to be with the motor rev's before it changes gear, might just be my set up ???
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David, Holden say computer has nothing to do with the auto change ??? on the early model
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Gone VN s1 with VP T700 auto, only draw back seems to be with the motor rev's before it changes gear, might just be my set up ???
That's a pretty standard complaint apparently but there are kits you can fit to fix that.
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Gone VN s1 with VP T700 auto, only draw back seems to be with the motor rev's before it changes gear, might just be my set up ???
That's a pretty standard complaint apparently but there are kits you can fit to fix that.
Kit, as in...... ???
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In answer to one of my own questions I found this quote on oldholden.com
"The VS up sumps are a different design (alloy sump) as they become part of the motors strenghth. so no a vn
sump to my knowledge wont fit."
but I all so noticed n the same thread someone saying that the CRS sump might fit.
source http://oldholden.com/node/52354
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Kit, as in...... ???
Something like this...
http://trickshiftperformance.com.au/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=184&zenid=568ba1399850bb8c831958d171be4494 (http://trickshiftperformance.com.au/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=184&zenid=568ba1399850bb8c831958d171be4494)
B&M do them for the T700.
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Kit, as in...... ???
Something like this...
http://trickshiftperformance.com.au/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=184&zenid=568ba1399850bb8c831958d171be4494 (http://trickshiftperformance.com.au/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=184&zenid=568ba1399850bb8c831958d171be4494)
B&M do them for the T700.
Ok thamks for that. Should have been done when I got the auto recon...... Looks like something you could do yourself with a little know how......... ???
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There are a few different ones around depending on what your requirements are. I remember seeing kits such as this mentioned when I was trolling the Justcommodores forum so that might be a good place to start looking for more info.
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i know this is an old thread but i thought i would post the information that i know to be fact from first hand experience :)
i put an ecotec in my Torana and i made the sump myself, i used a VN-VR sump and as far as it bolting to the motor was concerned the only difference is a few holes at the rear of the motor.
so the cork gasket is the VN-VR one, you can see i have cut some of the gasket out to fit the bolts where required
(http://www.oldholdens.com/images/cars/bluelhtorana/engine/v6conversion/P1020740.JPG)
this shows the areas, two at the rear welded up and re-drilled, aswell as the bottom right of the picture, other than that everything else lines up perfectly.
(http://www.oldholdens.com/images/cars/bluelhtorana/engine/v6conversion/P1020714.JPG)
as far as T700 gearboxes go, the VN-VP boxes are hydraulicly controlled with the computer only controlling the lockup torque converter, it will not engage unless your in 4th gear and then have to be over i think 80kms and within certain throttle position range for it to activate.
when i put the T700 behind my 202 in the torana before i had a commodore computer on it i modified the wiring inside the box to have it work slightly differently, so it used the 4th gear switch and also used a vacuum switch it seemed to work pretty well so it would un-engage if i put the stick back to 3rd, and seemsed to work ok with the vacuum switch for load wise.
the only really down side was you had to put the stick back to 3rd when coming into town.
vr onwards are totally electric boxes and need the computer for all gear changes!
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Hey Sammy...I gather you had to modify the commy oil pick up as well? ;)
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yep!
(http://www.oldholdens.com/images/cars/bluelhtorana/engine/v6conversion/P1020715.JPG)
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Accelerator cable???????? Can anyone give me advice on what longer accelerator cabke i can use for v6motor. Beddie doesn't fit ( different cable attachements ) and commodore is to short... any suggestions would be helpfull. not sure yet if any other model commodore is longer for me to use... thanks all
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Yup fun & games
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go and find one from a VS Commodore Ecotec V6 they are like 2 mtrs long, thats the best i can suggest.
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I just located a place that specialized in making cables. In this case it was a marine shop, I took measurements, took my old cable in so they could reuse the fittings and they made up a new one. From memory it cost about $50.
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I just located a place that specialized in making cables. In this case it was a marine shop, I took measurements, took my old cable in so they could reuse the fittings and they made up a new one. From memory it cost about $50.
I second marine shops, heres a guy I use in qld....awesome to deal with!
http://www.marinecontrolsystems.com.au/ (http://www.marinecontrolsystems.com.au/)
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Thanks guy's will try the VS V6, will also check out a boat place as well...
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I took my cables to cable place too, mounted them, taped them together to get the right length and took them in and said make one out of the two ...
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VN cable fitted mine due to the firewall being cut.
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Accelerator cable???????? Can anyone give me advice on what longer accelerator cabke i can use for v6motor. Beddie doesn't fit ( different cable attachements ) and commodore is to short... any suggestions would be helpfull. not sure yet if any other model commodore is longer for me to use... thanks all
Hi mate,
I used the standard Beddie cable in mine and modified the mounts at the motor. that way I carry a standard spare beddie cable and I am covered if it ever breaks. I used the round pivot circle thingy from the standard Beddie carby on the VT throttle body and it works a treat and it pulls from the driver's side of the vehicle. It then had a knock on effect because I didn't need extra width on the passenger's side for a cable to wrap around without kinking.
I also used the CRS sump on mine as it allowed me to install the V6 into the hole without having to cut anything at all from behind the motor. Just widened it a little. This was a big plus with the engineer for rego as there is a structural rib under the floor that was untouched. Could then make up a screw together engine cover as the cabin/floor strength was intact. I also retained the original auto gearshift by using the CRS sump. Oh, and also the original gearbox crossmember and mount.
IMHO the CRS sump kit is worth its weight in gold for a Beddie V6 swap.
Cheers
Neil
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I had a VP V6 Commodore fitted in the CF Bedford motorhome with Auto trans,