BUGA Community
Technical => Miscellaneous Technical => Topic started by: able on August 17, 2009, 11:28:44 AM
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in a red 202 how difficult is a cam shaft replacement?
i see its very easy in a v8 but it looks like you have to take off rockers and valves and just about everything in a red 202?
and then putting all together again at the right specs ::)
im mechanically minded but im lacking experience.... it also looks like you need to buy specific tools?
would i be better off just taking off the head and paying a mechanic to do it to save myself a head ache and a blown motor?
its a vodo straight gas cam i got ground up.... i also had the vk manifold modified to suit my red 202... i also picked up a electric dizzy and coil from a blue motor and scored a second gas tank for helping a mate with his shorty 40.
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13451&g2_serialNumber=2)
manifold modification and brand new cam shaft + cam lube $363
how much should i be looking at for cam instillation if i take off the head myself?
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what did they do to modify the vk manifold?
cheers
ben
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1. remove rocker cover 2. remove rockers 3.remove push rods 4. remove side plates 5. remove lifters 6. remove dizzy & oil pump 7. loosen sump bolts 8. remove harmonic balancer 9. remove timing cover 10. remove cam 11. same again in reverse order . ;D PS: dont forget to degree the cam in ;D ;D hope that helps Cheers Neil
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Changing cams is not that difficult to do Able. Tools you will need are a harmonic balancer puller to remove the pulley from the front of the engine. And a hydraulic press to remove the cam gear from the old camshaft and press it onto your new one. When you do this make sure you get the thrust bearing and retainer plate on the cam (this sits just behind the gear) in the right order. Also make sure the cam gear is aluminium and not the old cotton fibre one as these break. The cam gear has an alignment mark with the drive gear on the crank so you cant really mess up the timing.
You will have to take the oil pump and distributor off the engine block as well as removing all the cam followers (lifters) before you can remove the cam. Once you have all that stuff off it is just a matter of taking off the timing gear cover from the front of the engine and then removing the two screws holding the retainer plate behind the cam gear.The cam should then slide right out
I would recommend you buy new cam followers too as they are a wear matched set to the old cam and using old lifters can ruin the lobes on the new cam.
EDIT: what merlin said ;D (your too quick mate)
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degree the cam in
please explain.
how much for new lifters if the old ones are going to cause damage?
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60-70 dollars. well worth it.
Oh and there is a nice schematic on old holden.com on how to wire up your HEI dizzy
here you go:http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/HEI_Conversion_Wiring_Instructions (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/HEI_Conversion_Wiring_Instructions)
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thanks guys!
any other thoughts or warnings appreciated!
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what did they do to modify the vk manifold?
cheers
ben
moved a bolt hole (im not sure what they are called) you will notice one is up and the other is down now... on the vk they are parallel.
they also tig'd the injector holes up.
they built up the inside so that they matched the red intake holes. (they were to big on the manifold)
they built up area's so that they matched the height with the exhaust manifold (so your clamps are running straight)
and ground out sections on the sides where the bolts and pins go.
then last but not least... machined it flat.
i still have to tap and bolt off the four holes you can see along the top {which is the bottom in the pic} then their is one at the right hand side you can just make out...
also you can see a little dicky thing in the hole... that comes off from the back and i will plate that off. (looks like a vacuum thing)
shit i sound blond.... that thingy this thingy ::)
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i just noticed that to get the cam shaft out/in i will have to undo the chassis bolts and lift the bloody beddy again...
im not cutting the nose out!
bugga!
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i was having a look here....
http://69.20.53.62/pdf/803.pdf (http://69.20.53.62/pdf/803.pdf)
for degreeing the cam shaft.... it seems they recomend it if you think they have f**ked up on the notches...
do all people degree in their camshafts or do most people just trust that the notch positions are correct?
seems like a expensive one use kit for a just in case?
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i just noticed that to get the cam shaft out/in i will have to undo the chassis bolts and lift the bloody beddy again...
im not cutting the nose out!
bugga!
Nah just undo the engine mounts and lift the motor a little. It doesnt have to move much to clear the front crossmember.
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i just noticed that to get the cam shaft out/in i will have to undo the chassis bolts and lift the bloody beddy again...
im not cutting the nose out!
bugga!
Nah just undo the engine mounts and lift the motor a little. It doesnt have to move much to clear the front crossmember.
excellent.
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does anyone know if the lifters in a red 202 are hydraulic?
and if they are then do i or don't i need to do valve adjustments?
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yes hydraulic , no you dont
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thanx Craig.
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Hi Able.....I have replaced the lifters on a holden red motor only twice. ;D The only advice of any note i can give you is....When you are about to fit the new lifters into the engine, get some new engine oil and put some in the bottom of an icecream container just enough to cover the top of the lifter as it stands on its end in the bottom of the container. :) Get a piece of dowell or a blunt bit of steel rod,and sit it into the dished end of the lifter(where the pushrod would sit) and push up and down on the lifter.This should expell the air from inside the lifter, and prime it with oil. I have found that if you dont, the lifters make a hell of a racket trying to pump up when the engine is started. The other tip is,when removing the old lifters they can be bloody buggers to remove make sure you have a can of carby cleaner handy and plenty of patience. They sometimes get a layer of carbon on the underside of them which causes them to get stuck in the block. Last but not least.when removing the old cam,withdraw it carefully so as not to nick any of the cam bearings on the way out.. ;D ;D cheers..johnno
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thanx john! i would not of thought of that in a million years....
its definitely not true what they say about ya ;D
worth investing in the removal tool?
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its definitely not true what they say about ya ;D
worth investing in the removal tool?
lol yes it is and you should see the removal tool....lolololol
sorry m8 couldn't help it
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Yes... I had my removal tool working overtime at Craigs place yesterday removing spare parts for my van! ;D Thanks Buddy!!! :)
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i invested in a cheap harmonic balancer puller... $24
but three places i went to did not have a lifter removal tool and the forth i rang up and they said they do but its $100?
i thought it would be a simple cheap tool like a door handle remover?
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Able
Get an old screwdriver say a six inch flat bladed one, bend the shaft (just above the flat) to 45 degrees, then bend the tip 6mm from the end to 90 degrees.
The point of the screwdriver then can be put into the lifters circlip groove and slowly lift up
too easy :D
Oh by the way, that will cost ya $80
Warren
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thanxs warren!
ill make it up and when im finished with it ill hang it next to my poor mans break adjuster ;D
that $100 one must have been gold plated!
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Able..Just remember if you are going to lift up with a screwdriver try and make sure that you lift it up straight not on an angle otherwise it might break the lifter! ;)
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im starting to pull apart the 202 to get to everything...
i took off the existing stock manifold and lined up my vk efi manifold ( just to see how it will sit) and by the look of it i might have to cut some out of the corner of the engine tunnel....
perhaps just the corner and then plate it flat...
is this legal and will it pass road worthy without having to go to a engineer? (vic)
i suppose i will have to cut a a slot down the engine cover and wield in a bump with half/whole inch gap? or would i be able to heat and panel beat the engine cover?
i can supply a pic to show what i mean looking down the motor from the front with the manifold inline?
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alright...
how do you get stubborn lifters out?
they will pop up about 1-1.5 centimeters and then they will budge no more....
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LOL,
When I replaced my cam one lifter was such a little BUGA to get out I snapped the top edge off it flush with the lifter gallery. Then I pulled the guts out of it and tried pulling it out with my biggest set of circlip pliers, still wouldnt move. So pulled the sump off and bashed it out from underneath, mission accomplished :D
Its a method of last resort but it works.
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LOL,
When I replaced my cam one lifter was such a little BUGA to get out I snapped the top edge off it flush with the lifter gallery. Then I pulled the guts out of it and tried pulling it out with my biggest set of circlip pliers, still wouldnt move. So pulled the sump off and bashed it out from underneath, mission accomplished :D
Its a method of last resort but it works.
i have managed to find a few threads on forums and a few people have suggested carby cleaner or kero?
lifting the lifter ;D up as far as it goes and then coating it with either fluid to break up crud on the bottom (varnish)
i have not got oil in the sump so i guess one of them could work?
you had only one mr whippy???? i cant get one out!
one person said suggested if its a old motor that they can mushroom at the bottom????
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push it back down clean around the top the hole as best you can,apply small amount grease or gel, if your using the screwdriver with the bent end ? place a small ring spanner between the two lift lifter up as high as you can and the lightly tap upwards under the spanner.
with special knockometer (bedford tool known to most as a hammer) :)
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Hey Able....I had the same problem with 2 of my lifters, so this is what i ended up doing to get them out. I removed the circlip from the top of the lifter and got a small piece of strong wire and stuck it into the little hole on top of the lifter and proceeded to pull the guts out of the lifter. Once i had done this i was able to stick one of my fingers in there and get some grip on it. You maybe able to get a grip with some needle nosed pliers.? I then just swivelled the lifter up and down and back and forth whilst spraying with carby cleaner. Gradually i managed to work them out. Be careful they dont break like this bugger did.! ;)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa315/johnabbott_2007/BrokenLifterjpg.jpg)
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my timing gear is one of the old cotton fiber ones that mr wippy warned me about....
reason i know.... with the slightest of pressure it snapped. the small gear is metal.
am i ok to get a second hand one or is it one of those "you have to replace them both together" deals?
and are the 202 and 186 timing gears the same? as i have a 186 sitting their i could harvest it from.
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did you get the lifters out?
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most are out... the others have penatrean and im waiting for that to soak right in, im spinning them and pushing them up and down to help it get right down.
some come easy... some didn't... the modified screw driver works a treat though.
any hints on the timing gear?
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If this does not work cut a poly pipe in half along the length. Remove the cam and put the poly pipe in to catch the lifters. Then just push them down and out.
this was on a ford forum.... concerning hard to remove (mushroomed at the bottom) lifters
would this work for Holden motors? their reasoning is that if you force them to come up you will score your lifter bores.
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... the modified screw driver works a treat though...........
whoever thought of that :D
any hints on the timing gear?
Its the large roundy geary thing on the end of the bumpy stick.
Seriously, take it to a garage or engineering place to press it off and press the new one bacl on again.
Warren
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i don't have to change the small one? they wont rip each other to bit with one being old?
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Yes, your supposed to change both,timing gears come in pairs.
I forget for sure, but I think the small gear has two tapped holes to put a puller in, or you need a bearing puller to get it off.
I just changed the large one and put up with a bit of noise.
Warren
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my timing gear is one of the old cotton fiber ones that mr wippy warned me about....
reason i know.... with the slightest of pressure it snapped. the small gear is metal.
am i ok to get a second hand one or is it one of those "you have to replace them both together" deals?
and are the 202 and 186 timing gears the same? as i have a 186 sitting their i could harvest it from.
I don't think it would cause any issues if you use only the cam gear off your 186, as long as it is the aluminium type. You will need a hydraulic press to change it. most workshops would have one that a carton of piss would get use of.
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a carton of piss is now twice what it used to cost ;) maybe half :D
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hey able, did you get the job done? i only just found the thread..
A few things that would be handy to know..
If you plan to make the motor rev, you're best off getting lifters that are anti-jack to 7000rpm, the others wont rev past 5800 (in the race cars anyway)
The straight cut timing gears are much easier to get lined up (J.P make good ones)
as was said you want to get oil into the lifters before putting them in, the method said above was good, we usually just use an oil can tho.
we've never bent a screw driver, but that was a good idea. We usually just use a flat blade in thru the side plate.
that should be enough for a basic motor, if you need to build any sort of performance motor, i have much more wisdom available....
good luck
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just got my timing gears last Friday morning... i have had zero cash flow for a few months.
now all i need is my engine crane back from the friend i lent it to so i can pull the front end out.
i was reading a few forums and people advise against straight cut gears as they tend to eat each other and leave glitter in the oil. they do sound great but a few people also say you get sick of the noise after a while. one or two people even went as far as calling them wanker gears :o
the normal gears they say are stronger as they have four groves contacting at any one time spreading the load across a larger area as opposed to one tooth and grove with the straight cuts... this made both economic and reliability sense to me so i just went the normal one's (aluminum ofcourse) from jp performance. $63. well $70 after our government mafia got their tithing... ;D
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hey mate, fair enough. i understand the lack of cash flow completely.. ahaha
yeah on a street car, you probably pay more attention to the noise of small things like that, however i've never noticed the straight cut gears over the harmony the the race car, from idle to redline, but so long as you're happy thats fine.
I have seen the angle cut gears sheer tho. However i haven't heard of the straight gears grinding themselves down in any sort of manner. We do use good addatives, but i'd be guessing the cars that've suffered have had problems with the oiling.
The J.P are good though, so you should be happy
Anyway, what sort of valve springs have you gone with? We use the crow 308 springs and knock the second (centre) spring/damper out of them. Again it probably isnt a problem on a street car, but we changed from these to some out of something smaller (253 or similar) they're not as stiff, but we broke 3 springs in quick succession.. so it was straight back to the 308 springs.
I've had a quick look at your manifold, and must say im impressed. Sounds like it'll be a good motor.
keep us updated.
Cheers
Matte
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as i have limited if any experience with motor modification im trusting the knowledge of the people doing the work... i will find out what springs ect ect they use when i get the cash up for the head.
they built a $7000 big block for my cousin that has not missed a beat.... silly bugger sold it before he got it into a car... ow well when you have kids your goals change.
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no worries, if they're in the business they'll have an idea of what they're doing.. it's all easy to do if you have the right tools, if not you'll struggle..
I bet he'd have sold the kids if he'd put the motor in a car first ;D
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he sold it to a brother in law... which means he can take it for a spin if he desires...
the only complaint was that it makes the car go sideways just as much as forward ;D
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that sounds powerful..
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that sounds powerful..
and expensive fuel wise i hear. i remember watching a vid of it on the dyno... the camera was loosing sound and the video while they were revving it. i didn't know extremely loud sounds could effect video camerares like that but when they were not testing it it would regain sound and vid...
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with the smaller timing gear (the one on the crank shaft) what sort of grub screws are in the two holes????
red 202.
edit im looking all over the net but it seems the only reference i can find is that you need a special puller... i have a two armed generic gear puller.
i had a look at the new gear and it has no shoulder for a screw bolt to even sit against... i cant see into the one on the motor as its full of grease...
both my manual "Haynes" and my mates just say remove gear...... the only info they give on the gear is to use a large socket to drift it back on.
so what is the go with this dam gear???? is it pins or screws or what????
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hey mate, do you mean to secure the gear on the crank, or to pull it off the crank?
If you mean to pull it off, they're 7/16 fine thread bolts for the puller (from memory)
If you mean to secure the gear on there, we never put a bolt in to secure the harmonic balancer infront of the timing gear, you have much more chance of having the harmonic balancer split in half on the rubber than to have the pulley work loose.
I hope this answers your question
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the gear on the crank is held in place with a moon key, use a three pronge pully toremove it and be sure to have a bolt in the front of the crank, to save damage to the thread.
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i only have a two armed puller but i cant see how you would get a third arm on. the case is in the way and only half the gear is accessible.
so their is definitely nothing i need to unscrew in those holes?? i can just put a puller on the gear and it should come off?
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been reading a few Holden forums and some suggest heating the gear up to get it off and on. some suggest putting it in the oven and heating it right up before you try to put it on.
other people have just replaced the camshaft gear and not the other..... apparently they are buggers to get off and on.
hmmm.
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what do you mean by the case is in the way? do you mean the timing cover?
If so, you should have the timing cover off, but i can't understand how you could possibly see the gear if the timing case is on..
We use a universal puller, it can be a 2 or 3 bolt puller, but most of the holden stuff we deal with is 2 screw. the puller we have is like a Gclamp, and has a flat that goes upto the face of the crank rather than a bolt that will potentially damage the inner thread(not that that thread is of much use..)
But as was said, if you dont have a flat faced puller, put a bolt in that thread as something to pull against, make sure when the tension comes up on the bolts, that they are pulling evenly. you don't want it pulling to one side as it will cause multiple issues. As you're tightening the main thread of the puller(not the 2x 7/16) brace the whole puller with your other hand so that it keeps it central, as the thread tends to drive in an out-of-square motion.
You'll need to have a fair bit of tension on the main bolt before anything will happen, then all of a sudden it will 'pop' and then it'll come off easily.
What you will need to do in most cases first however, take the key out of the crank that aligns the harmonic balancer, this key can be a fair way out of line compared to the keyway of the gear.
If you're having trouble getting the key out, use a chisel on the side(so it stands up vertically) and use it at the back of the key and hit it with a hammer, this should knock the front up so you can knock it out. Just dont drop it in the sump.
Good luck
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we never heat the gears, and there have been days where we have been testing cam timing where we've had to putr the gear on 15-20times.. maybe more..
to put it on just use a 1&1/4 socket and a gimpy, you want one with a bit of weight, and you want ot try and hit it centrally, pulling it off is in many ways easier.
If you're testing timing using filed keyways, then only belt it on 3/4 of the distance so you can check it.
But when you are ready to put it on, belt it as hard as you can, because you want it to go on until it bottoms
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what i mean with the case was the block...
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17526&g2_serialNumber=2)
not much room for a third arm....
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17536&g2_serialNumber=2)
so neither of these two pullers are any good?
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17531&g2_serialNumber=2)
what is the generic name for the puller i need if i cant use the ones above?
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hey mate, the puller i'd use is the gold colored one, the one we use has a flat, where yours seems to have a tip(unless it was an optical illision) so i'd definately use a bolt in the thread on the crank
I see what you mean about the block, but that's not where you'll want to pull it from, you wont get enough leverage like that.
pull the key out of the keyway at the end of the crank, then put a bolt in the end of the crank, hold the puller upto the bolt/crank, then put your two 7/16 fine threads in, tighten them up evenly until it is square, then get a big crescent/shifter or a bar and socket and work the gear off.
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thankyou. first thing in the morning.
you know i could have been asking all these silly questions a few months ago if the person i lent my engine crane to for a weekend didn't take three months to give it back. ;D
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hahah, better late than never. gotta love it when mates borrow things 'for the weekend'
are you putting the cam shaft and new gear on?
Do you know how to degree the cam?
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HOOHOO cant wait for this description ;D ;D ;D ;)
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yes and no :D
i used two blocks of wood (one at the bottom and one at the top and used a heavy hammer to put the large timing gear on the cam shaft. it went on slowly... i actually had my camshaft all lubed up and was about to insert it and ram it home when it dawned on my that i had not taken the other gear off.... ::)
i do not know how to degree a cam... i was just going to line up the dots and bolt on the timing cover to tell you the truth.... its only going to be a family runner with a little more grunt the holden intended for the old red 202's.
if you start explaining you will probably should start with if its absolutely necessary for a good runner.
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well im down a puller as it twisted and broke....
the bastard timing gear is still on and im seeking drastic ways of getting the f*&%king thing off.
found this in my travels...
http://www.isettadoc.com/files/gearpuller1.pdf (http://www.isettadoc.com/files/gearpuller1.pdf)
i am not spending 200 on something like that though...
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hey mate, thats not good news.
thats another good reason to brace the puller while using it..
You can try belting the gear to loosen it using a big socket and a gimpy
or you can heat it, but we've never needed to..
Just make sure the puller is even on both bolts, and tighten it slowly so you can make sure it isn't twisting out of shape.
With the cam timing you really need to know where it is, you dont have to chase the minor increases, but something that will seem like buga all could be the difference between to motor running and not.
You need a dial gauge, and you need to know where your TDC is exactly. I guess you could have your TDC 'close enough' but it isn't wise
there's probably a thread with pictures on the net somewhere.. but i'll give you a basic run down.
You'll need: a dial gauge, a degree chart(advisable) and the spec sheet for the cam
Put the dial gauge base on the block somewhere flat that wont be affected by the piston coming up (standard blocks aren't usually a problem because the pistons aren't usually higher than the top of the block)
Get the number 1 piston somewhere near the top of it's travel.
Then get the gauge setup so the needle is touching the top of the piston square, slightly compressed, but with plenty of room to move either way.
Zero the dial gauge.
Move the crank clockwise(we use customised tools, you may need to use a big screwdriver to turn the flywheel, brace against a dowell and put the screwdriver in the teeth of the ringgear)
See if the dial value has gone up or down, if it goes up take it as high as you can before it goes down, then stop and zero the dial gauge.
If it went down initially, then turn counter clockwise until the dial gauge has gone as high as possible before going down, then zero the gauge.
Now you want to make sure it is central, move it counter clockwise, and clockwise 10thou each way to make sure you are central.
Now what we do is drill through the flywheel into the block, so we can easily and quickly check that we are at TDC using a welding rod of the right size, or a 3/8 gutter bolt
You can skip the above step, but it's still wise..
Now you know where your TDC is.
Now on the sheet with the cam it should say that it is setup for 36thou or something similar and will give you other numbers to check you've done it right.
You'll need:
the crank gear off,
the cam in (best to have the mounting plate done up nice and tight),
a lifter in,
a pushrod with a spike that'll fit into the needle of the dial gauge(you can shape soem solder, or a welding rod so it slides into the pushrod and has a point at the other end),
best to have a degree chart,
and if you drilled the block put the bolt in as it'll keep your TDC accurate,
dial gauge,
and your key in the keyway on the crank.
put in your key, setup the dial gauge on top of the block so not affected by the piston with the needle on the top of the pushrod. If the cam says 36thou, zero the dial gauge, then you need to turn the cam until the gauge reads 36thou.
Now you need to find a keyway that will line up with the crank and the camshaft. This is where you'll realise how much a small amount can GREATLY affect the cam, if you have to force the cam to get the teeth to line up, you'll see it jump to 50thou or something similarly extreme.
Find a tooth that will keep it at 36thou, or within 2 or 3 thou of it if you can get it exactly (note: when i say 36thou, remember you need to use the figure listed on the cam sheet)
When you've got it right, belt the gear on,
If you have a degree chart follow the cam sheet and see if the numbers match.
If they do, put the rest of the motor together and enjoy..
If i've forgotten anything, feel free to correct me.
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victory is mine.
i lent this home made puller from a worker at johnny dyno's.
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17542&g2_serialNumber=2)
looks very home made and is actually made out of scrap. pulled the timing gear off with about as much effort as unscrewing a stiff bolt. utterly amazing what the right tool can do. i drilled out the holes to 8mm and taped them with a 3/4 tap. time all up from getting home with the gear... about 5 min including tapping. ::)
i gave him three Carlton longnecks for his kindness and everyone's happy. ;D
thanks for the above info matte. if im having trouble when im starting it up (god knows when with my money flow) then yours is the post ill be gunning for.
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Good to hear you got the gear off, right tool for the job makes life easy. And funnily enough, it's usually the homemade 'rough as guts' tools that out live and out perform the expensive store bought items.
Alot of tools my grandad has made to suit a purpose have only just started coming out in the shops over the last 5 years or so..
anyway, good luck with the build
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Hey Able is ole Johnny still running Geelong Dyno Centre ? I used to have a shop there and he used to do all my machinning .The mans a legend with motors if he is tell him I said G'Day (Im Gavins Brother) Cheers Neil
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yes he is. i will do that Merlin. he's doing my 173 head and i order all my parts through him.
and yes it still takes up to half a hour before you get served. ;D
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half an hour !!?? he has improved i could spend up to three hours there but he had me beat how he knew where everything was :o ;D