BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: ben on June 20, 2009, 06:20:46 PM
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i have a problem. that has got me really stumped!!!!!!
hear me out!
my van's motor stopped working. (173) i changed the points did a few outher fiddling. couldnt get it going. and i was changing the motor in a few days anyway so i didnt bother. the new motor was running well when i pulled it out of another van i was driving a week ago..
pulled the motor out.
so everything on the motor stayed on the motor except the alternator i kept from old motor.
would not start!
so i checked leads.
no sparkad spark from the coil.
had spark at the points
no spark at the leads.
got the mechanic over he gave me a new set of points and balister resister to get me going.
he left it still would not start.
i checked continuey on the motor gear box, coil all good,
after stuffing round for ages i now had no spark at the coil any more
tryed different coils
i gave up on it after stuffinf with it for 4 hours..
then today i got a electronic dizzy from the parts truck
bought new leads, new plugs, and cap
fitted new leads, plugs and cap not yet.
still no spark at the leads. or coil. this dizzy is untested but a bloke gave it to me to put in my van a long time ago. he said it worked..
im running power direct from the starter and a switch that i flick on and off when i want to start to make sure its not ignition barrel problem.
please what else is there to do?????????????
pics of my setup of my nightmare!!! supposed to have used the van yesterday, now getting desperate need the van for tommorow to drive to snow!!!!
please any ideas im soo soo desperate!!!
ben
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2516.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2517.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2518.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/DSCF2519.jpg)
are pics big enogh?
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run a wire from positive battery to positive coil if this works you have an ignition short this is known as a hot wire it will get you going if it does not work either coil is stuffed or points are set wrong or in the case of electronic diziy its stuffed dont go for power from starter go direct from battery
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yeh running wire straight from starter now. ok ill try straight from battery now.. brb
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Feeling your pain Benny Boy, wish i could help but what i know about mechanics you could engrave on an aspro with a crow bar - hope you work it out.
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i have another points dizzy and coil there i pulled out of a running truck 2 hours ago (it was not running 2 hours ago it was pulled out then. it was running 6 months ago.)
the orig dizzy and coil was fine before it went into this van also..
i asume im looking in the right place..
ben
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best to stick with points setup so you can see things working, movement, spark
I assume the rotor button is turning,
you have checked by turning the motor over and dizzy top off?
could be a dizzy drive problem, eg cam gear or if rockers not working fibre timing gear on cam
all seems bit desperate but check all when in doubt
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Dont get yourself confused or you wont see the forest for the trees.
Go back to basic's....
Batt power to coil -ok - with HT lead from COIL held to near ground flash neg of coil to earth -HT lead should spark YES ok coil and HT lead NO bad coil or HT lead.
If all YES now - then connect neg of coil to points, with points closed -open and close with stick or screw driver tip "do not ground out" while opening and closeing check for spark at coil HT- OK -move on NO- ensure points are opening and closeing fully to contact on close and but are grounded continusely, check insulater location on the points spring,-wrong location will ground points and or not connect fly lead to points, check fly lead on points not broken.
Beyond this there is not much else to the electrics, ensure engine has good earth strap to battery or chassie or voltage will drop right off under cranking and prevent fireing.
The older beddies had an ignition ballast lead in the loom feeding the ignition coil, this was bypassed under cracking to provide 12V to the 6V coil.
you may want to check a full 11.5 -12V is getting to the coil under cracking, but your direct 12V line from batt would have bypassed this.
Other things to check are:
If HT from coil sparks ok, then with dizzy cap off hold HT above rotor and crank engine over, ensure spark should NOT jump across to Rotor top.
If it does rotor is grounded and needs replacing, this is not uncommon.
Also check dizzy cap for cracks and tracking- thin black lines in inside or outside shorting to ground.
This same tracking can cause a rotor to fail and can happen on the inside of a rotor, where it fits over the dist cam, so you may not see it, until you remove the rotor and look inside it.
If you go through this list systimaticly you will find the fault.
Cheers
Rusty
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thanks guys got spark now. trying to fire. just getting timing light out now hopefully going soon!!!!!
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and when it going we want to know what you missed eh ;D ;D
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sure will!!!
still cant get it to start.. its firing.
found a warp in the harmonic balancer. must have happened with the accident.
but it should still run..
tryed turning the dizzy as much as it goes. not much change.. tryed moving it a tooth. seemed to want to start better. but still no good.
any more suggestions guys??
thanks
ben
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your not out by a tooth are you
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If you have previously removed the dizzy make sure it is not 180 degrees out, easly done.
Is it trying to fire under cranking and then failing to run ? if so, ensure there is still 12V at coil when key is released to the run posistion.
Keep going back to basic young grass hopper, the answer will reveal itself it will, yes.
By now you may want to pull the plugs and make sure they are not wet, as youve been likely trying to get a start for some time.
Dry them out, crank over with the plugs out to dry the bores and after another coffee refit the plugs, NOW my young apprentice...
You could always static set the timing, bring engine to TDC, with the number one valves closed, from memory fire order is 153624 so with number four valves rocking, number one should be closed at TDC, then in this posistion refit dizzy with points just closing to touch. and rotor to number 1 contact on cap.
This will give you back your starting posistion to fire up, you will have to roatate the dizzy a little as you crank.
happy hunting, oh I remember these days so well, what fond memories of hovering away over a reluctant motor in a cold shed late at night only to find ............................................... :P ::)
oh sorry not helping, carry on
Rusty
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Don't always believe the timing notch on the balancer I have seen them out of alignment before,
You did mention it’s not the best balancer.
You could always check top dead centre buy feeling the piston height in number one cylinder
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i tryed moving it on tooth clockwise. it seemed to want to start better but still not.
im running on gas.. not petrol. so no wet issues..
i have plenty of gas too. stuck my nose over the gas hat. almost keiled over lol..
when i pulled the dizzy out i put the electronic one in with the vacum diafram in exactly the same position. is there a posibilility that the vacum diafram is in a diferent position on the new dizzy??
might try moving it to a different tooth again. and getting another friend over today to help..
ben
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The vacume diaphram has no real bearing on where things are at, its all about the trigger posistion of points or the hall sensor, So the fireing point for the coil in relation to the piston and valve posistions.
Yes it is possible to have a vacume unit in a different location on the dist case from one dist to another.
It is also possible to and a common mistake to have the dizzy shaft 180 degrees out whe the dist body is correctly located.
Have you ensured that rotor points to number 1 plug lead on the dizzy cap, when the engine is at TDC set to fire on number 1 cyl
It sounds very much like its 180 out, it will try to fire up, but in the wrong order so will kick back when it fires.
Cheers
Rusty
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benno there should be a timing notch on the dizzy body and the rotor button has to line up with this when 1st piston is at the top... i feel ur pain mate ive been there heaps! good luck
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hey people. yeh had everything setup right with 1 at TDC and fireing lead 1.
had a mechanic come over to tell me what im doing wrong. he stuffed with it for 30mins and said. something simple wrong but its internal. so throw it away.
so thats what im gunna do.
got another motor in another van here gunna put in this week. went to the snow yesterday but came home last night. missing black beddy. feeling for her sitting in the yard stationary.
so gunna work on that this week. starting today.
cheers
ben
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In A word BUGGER !! :-\ :-\
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Hey Ben
Do you watch Scrap hHeap challenge on ABC 2, its a british program where two teams compete against each other, they have 10 hours to make something to do a task out of only what they can find in a wreckers yard.
Well one of the main things they say to do is "Make Sure Your Engine is Working ASAP" - like before you spend hourd making your machine.
It's a great show, and they make some weird and wonderfull stuff.
So what does this have to do with you ?
Get the motor running BEFORE you bother with taking it out - if it dont work - move on to another one - youve got heaps of em havent ya :D
Warren
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Oh and two common weak points of the holden six
1: fibre cam gear, over time they can weaken and loose teeth.
Fix - replace with alloy one.
2: Plastic distributor gear, over time they can weaken and loose teeth.
Fix - replace with steel (oil pump) one.
Ive had both of these happen, within six months of each other - dissy went first then the cam.
Warren
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yeh warren i just took 4 motors to craigs.. lucky i still have a few spare in vans.. pulling one out today. came back from snow early cause need van running..
ben
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whos got a story eh eh? thats me listen to this!!!!
so i took the van out on its first major run since i did a few engine changes. after getting onejust get going. it ended up being the carby or manifold and id say i pulled out a good motor cause i couldnt get it going. or the mechanic or other mates.
anyway so i get an hour away yesterday and i hear the tappets start to rattle like there no oil in her. i pull over put a litre in. keep driving. another half an hour down the road same thing.. hmmm somthing suspicious about this. put another litre of oil in. drove to a servo checked it out, fuel pump leaking oil from. ah ha easy ill just get some cardboard and make another gasket. so drove another hour while putting another 2 litres of oil through the girl. pulled the fuel pump out, made a gasket from cardboard i got from a hamburger package. and kept driving. still running out of oil. hmmm now gettting worries. im flat broke and only got a litre of oil left. so i rang my
good old friend benny booga and said hey bro how can i bloke this pump up? he said just get some steel and get rid of it. i said hey good idea. only problem is im on the road with no angle grinder or steel. or drill. he said what else you got. i said sandpaper off a belt sander. he said might do the trick so here is what i did..
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/bed002.jpg)
by the way i have a jukebox business for a job. and i do all my delivers on a friday for a reason incase disaster hits ive stil got a day to get everything organised for the jobs that are saturday night..
then put the last bit of oil in the van i had and kept driving. got 30mins down the road and out of oil again. now ive ran this motor out of oil 5 times now. bearing starting to become more noisy every time it happens.
so i did my last resort and put 1 litre of diff oil in the motor. got me going again, till i found a scrap metal yard. begged for some oil and he gave me a 20 litre drum of truck engine oil. i said thankyou so much and was on my way. put 5 litres in it. drove an hour checked the oil. what not going though oiil any more. hmmm must be fixed. oh well cool.
while i was at i thought better check those trany crossmemeber bolts. would hate to loose the trany while driving at 100!!! i only had 1 bolt on each side cause others were stripped from the other day. and left side i tightened a bit more and the damn things stripped!!!! far out!! thats not good!!!
thank god i found a truck strap on the side of the road a couple of hours ago.
heres what i did. saftey harness!!
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/jukeboxesrus/bed001.jpg)
warren doesnt call me the bush mechanic for nothing lol..
drove for an hour like that all up tight waiting for the crossmember to let go. i didnt so i relaxed. thinking lasted an hour.. should last a life time!!
after that only had minor problems. like the back door wire snapping could not keep the door closed and the trany oil cooler daging along the road fixing it back up.
now im home again. saftly.. with yet another story to tell the grankids..
big thanks go to helpful advisors, beny booga and warren!
till next adventure stay safe!
ben
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Ben all this going on you didn't forget about my front airdam? Allan
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nah bro got sent off yesterday.. no sweat! well there was sweat but i still made it to the depot in time by about 30 mins hehee shoudl recieve it on tue ish..
sorry bro i ussually call people when i get stuff sent off. totally forgot.
cheers
ben